From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16990 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2024 14:40:03 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jan 2024 14:40:03 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D8C43DD9; Thu, 4 Jan 2024 00:39:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF61543DD2 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2024 00:39:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ccbded5aa4so81771211fa.1 for ; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 06:39:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704292783; x=1704897583; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=wbim3DkvzlIFvT+4ZLhMvM/0nQiJJ6ancLcnHysixzY=; b=Hi3J14i2xVPEpELdNDBJFnGlhObnlFP2whzjZGZQ8eR+ZKJEFFOcK1bd/IZcYurXRV 5RvHLZ+f/kVhedkvLphzQ6jm0qtqpIZn14XfD3gYC4yRjZdO/PbXYnBkOi2JhPn+prvd +6WBd04c5mwstylqz3zjoNqlajxJey4zJ07R0Y6xFKtcX4+hugDWETP3OnrH2kyRdS23 AYejLGXSj+uUE/vmD2BDxfJHUZsxNgqqywv3LoUIv/UnTdAet4kB4EiEtLpP8zgEJs5S 0/nmiFlpmkMfbWXoggA3diIuFDjRZ7gWRuXU3AsWx0bihlbL4j6+BbbwjJF19Y4hwgGa ZRHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704292783; x=1704897583; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wbim3DkvzlIFvT+4ZLhMvM/0nQiJJ6ancLcnHysixzY=; b=ACCl5pjE4qrdSNLnYd7krxANURvBQe++0xvuteJstI8/Fo9dIy2UoIXTHYDHrSPu7l SEwAbkmJ2hEced8nKZB1RLYRjdAPoiLGmW7Vghco/ZKdVslu0cnoH7NLkzsk+gRmrOGg HFIqePLtbVxRj9xNYX7T7FDP9n0lHP9qO8cMa4dZSJaBVPe1WfoJg2reFY7zsPWkpy6s E1QXW3XLhEbMxZ/xyU1VpSu5/2lS6GcbCE31ba0l4NO0J+or8uTCk5hS2xXA/Fu8rHPt 0Bazz9lSfcPq78NTRr9wqp+/xFyS6nNuTNoljYQfuT1yDQ/DEbT3EeBYtz899bjHTbh6 q3EA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzIo5iC2op3X26B5iyo4mxbIYsxRzngZcuzhTayzTvukdz61Qdu 6AV80M4h9q6G2a0fRf9roOCJassyxUwhyR4hYAc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG3ssIWgDTsy+zuIQ/q3xnrVhDPiYHyKLa3Z/KdXKyFRnlQ8gYkXSeqAcz9ig1F9GNC6yxTnS9z1kSxkpURJH4= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9015:0:b0:2cd:1efa:d29e with SMTP id h21-20020a2e9015000000b002cd1efad29emr30338ljg.92.1704292782718; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 06:39:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6470c59f-a1e5-418f-803d-76bcd761f530@tnetconsulting.net> <20231231224649.h45pogxycgkgs673@illithid> <20231231230615.GE19322@mcvoy.com> <20240103033345.GA108362@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20240103033345.GA108362@mit.edu> From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 09:39:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: OYMYHHSD3GOTJRKWKKIXZJBSF6DN3RPY X-Message-ID-Hash: OYMYHHSD3GOTJRKWKKIXZJBSF6DN3RPY X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Unix Heritage Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Question about BSD disklabel history List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Tue, Jan 2, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=AFPM Theodore Ts'o wrote= : > On Tue, Jan 02, 2024 at 03:48:28PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 31, 2023 at 6:25=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy wrot= e: > > > > Ironically, the UEFI people have done something _similar_ to OF in the > > form of AML (ACPI Machine Language), which is a byte-code > > serialization ASL (ACPI Source Language); presumably that's system > > independent. The idea of a p-code representation is about where the > > similarity ends, though: AML exposes a mechanism to talk to the UEFI > > OS for a whole slew of stuff, which is rather unlike what OF did > > [Ted's excellent history of ACPI/UEFI elided for brevity.] > > Normally, once the OS has gotten to a certain point in its OS > initialization, the OS can "terminate UEFI services". At that point, > the OS can no longer call into the UEFI functions --- but it also > doesn't have to worry about the UEFI code servicing an interrupt take > taking control of the CPU away from the OS. Warner corrected this: UEFI remains resident and callable. > However, the OS can still execute various ACPI functions, assuming the > OS has its own AML interpreter. (Of course, the UEFI BIOS has its own > AML interpreter --- and scheduler --- and everything else that a > simple OS might have.) Ron Minnich has a number of really good > presentations about the "joys" of working with UEFI. See the YouTube > video, "Replace your Expoit-ridden Firmware with Linux"[1] and prepare to > be horrified about what horrors lurks in the heart of UEFI.... > > [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DiffTJ1vPCSo I'm well aware. :-) But I'll see your LinuxBoot and raise you this: https://www.osfc.io/2022/talks/i-have-come-to-bury-the-bios-not-to-open-it-= the-need-for-holistic-systems/ Of course, we at Oxide have the luxury of controlling the hardware in addition to the software that runs [directly] on it, so we can get away with doing our own thing. It's not so easy in the larger world, where integrating components from disparate vendors demands _some_ kind of interface. It's just unfortunate that UEFI is the interface that we got; see also Mothy Roscoe's OSDI'21 keynote about rediscovering hardware. > So you can very much be *not* using UEFI, and still be using ACPI --- > either if you are using a pre-2004 computer, or if you are using a > more modern platform which uses LinuxBoot. Indeed; caveat the details that have already been mentioned about coreboot/oreboot/holistic boot vs LinuxBoot (which replaces the UEFI DXE layer). However, note that the ACPI spec has fallen under the auspices of the UEFI forum for the last ten years or so, which is what I meant (e.g., that one finds the ACPI spec on uefi.org). It's true, though, that I was being unacceptably imprecise by not mentioning the history at all and that ACPI came before UEFI. - Dan C.