From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 12968 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2023 03:57:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jan 2023 03:57:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD1D42418; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 13:57:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f50.google.com (mail-lf1-f50.google.com [209.85.167.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EAA342417 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 13:57:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f50.google.com with SMTP id p36so37212917lfa.12 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:57:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9Uo3JWJKjo59kGSOKw7BYJIljUcoGpB/c4rDRiGI8+g=; b=jOnHHvYJB5FtHdIi2T9cRHXuz5knQ+nbcrPX4xRCe9hNi/oFwDcm3OuZQzFnG7I1Cf +7wnHkJiczu4nnFFM2tt2kSFvqtGCmYFGIhW7luY7+AAcDoePBrLjpARN5ZGWbk0eLw1 k6aqyuhqWKriCH0NdAvkeONBLMJSXJPj4BZ7M8vNZthPMCrXFgcRATO78xUKxLFSAWso 78KkbGzL5AGX00sqNaR/OooW4cCfKIsusBBOzyRNXPNeQB9PyAKj6Pbr17UKuRO/v2Yk +8NF/lb8c3CQTKX5sHt0gSIzT0Z6ZFvrEGmu2UDMgB3jdd5mJKGFLxsTTwberOyiV1dv 8Qfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=9Uo3JWJKjo59kGSOKw7BYJIljUcoGpB/c4rDRiGI8+g=; b=FLQ6+O52Z+rexAAymswii2Dd3pTK83gkqIKLeVZgacLOJqiv52izbYNCEds4UKNZJi c0Kh8SiXWtTapgUS7+ntlzG62l4ZlUu18zBmEzKEjLVcrAM9Z/AzIu1dLIMoCSr3stHc EasB2d3n1NbrIYQhxgNH6rmTxUVrfRrvPJb52jGtUujOEBfP6SP1No6MkfHBSTKfb1xq BSE8cDI+Sn/BQMAB8U/v3dqUowScoG3UV494Me9UWBFh3IBd1zw/eqZ0LCBYUYgduoVt cov8ixuMuRowh+wZvN0p30n0X0BJH66cDZCvJo8R5GXSKjzB9z23tOKyT+9XKGqSzeMO Xc5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2ko9RTG6eukPBpR3cEmCvPUVlFM/ng3320bTpIFktq6Muuc8x72j MrWS1Sml2RiAmSq8eUQfwli6l3S6gK1i/01tAugVhpvY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXuTH0Kmw98YEVNbYSnCuGs3dFyTY1kUCN5BZ91rSPs5Rptcr4Wvi/YMEkUHbwgbFSvxbOUFB1u6TqwTz65ZrK8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:23a6:b0:4cb:bec:27e6 with SMTP id c38-20020a05651223a600b004cb0bec27e6mr1302377lfv.86.1672545382428; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 19:56:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <335F89A9-30C2-41A2-8E84-C2D761746634@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:55:45 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: 6QUJIPZ3KWW7J6QW3WFNDWVPQQFJGSLE X-Message-ID-Hash: 6QUJIPZ3KWW7J6QW3WFNDWVPQQFJGSLE X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting the SysIII kernel: boot, config & device drivers List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 5:38 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 04:10:47PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > >> But in practice, no one has come > > >> up with a particularly good set of interfaces yet. Ironically, > > >> BSD-style autoconfig might have been the best yet. > > > > > > ??Maybe because it was OS types who knew what the OS needed to discover/report/deliver back from the HW. > > > > Perhaps this is what it is, but I think taking a step back and looking > > at the problem more generally, it's because they're mutated into > > solving the wrong problem. > > More generally, we need to make sure we're all on the same page with > respect to requirements. What are we trying to do with respect to > abstraction? Do we just want to inform the OS about Port and MMIO > addresses, interrupts, etc, with the device driver living in the OS? > Or are are we trying to move the entire device driver plus bus > configuration/attachment probing into some kind of separate firmware > layer which is decoupled from the rest of the OS? > > How important is portability? Does this hardware abstraction layer > and/or firmware need to work with major legacy OS's such as Windows 95 > (still in use by the US Government)? Windows 10? NetBSD? Linux? > Or just only new research OS's? > > How important is performance? And does it need to support OS's that > might want to support interesting features, such as say, confidential > computing? IOMMU's? DMA from a storage device directly into memory > which is accessable over RDMA via Infiniband or iWARP or to GPU > memory? > > Or are we just trying to solve the problem of loading the OS, or maybe > just initial bootstrap portion of the OS, where performance or support > for more exotic memory use cases might not be as important? > > If we don't agree on exactly what problem that we are trying to solve > with BSD-style autoconfig, vs UEFI vs ACPI vs the x86 BIOS vs CP/M's > BIOS, etc. Otherwise, the risk that we'll end up talking past one > another, or delivering a solution that we're happy with, but others > are not, is quite high IMHO. Spot on, Ted. I agree with everything here. - Dan C.