From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52DB284EE for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 20:55:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0114325F; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 04:55:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E0524325E for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 04:55:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ec0f3b9cdbso1928831fa.0 for ; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:55:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718304928; x=1718909728; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=R2gqD5xjUkWwz1Nw0hY2QMIPB4LWHA+BrGHbnvLeYtY=; b=M5E1TUnbRVg8bEOMtLCcoGSHlrP9GePoVgpcS9+mqZxXJG9YbxQsEdZLVLm1pgH9gq 3FXjPv1G7FtgYMMrqAyoZyldhQExe87tuNJNkCPKBy3dnpjY6OIqXB0ZlP7aduvsaFLb /P8Wst4oF1QAqNaX2SosH/caVdSYuxsK2fcPIzyDrw+zN7hIdLEVGQoD5TOnoqhPb0pZ 2wQCoPhSD4Uame4UJ2zVD3+aUdAIY+aJ5STEESHxedBj4YEwAaL1lkyRETpgBaMBHTkp MvXKAVaip0czuZ5DHA34qpF7q/K3fAwvXpILJB+IYQ9MX/zgPI2ospDQLqbw/W+w4WAc dacw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718304928; x=1718909728; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=R2gqD5xjUkWwz1Nw0hY2QMIPB4LWHA+BrGHbnvLeYtY=; b=K/x/H3/uSUy0dSYCxPeDoOVvmN9RTywn14nRaT5sFRCK4DF8G+f7nwdAIFJeUBc/3L RYFhg76rfbqk2/QXf2eA+gkg7tICs/KvnEleBCe2syl9mTqsIEdhkfDcSSeigZgmVlvk eDXHki/WZ/PFSCQj6TiXvig+tNCltpfDg7PMEVPaxGxmeo706879chKqrjHymaJYjK9d uVZp6wxucPoiIHeFaewRCYDAr5tUUkSVX9TpBhYjI0vhFz1/QYwYjcgIfqzKW3cPPmiy CclZiwOy291yWFQMcFI3Dk+JunWFmjIW4ATBc/hc04knEvbuUeld5A+mWPQZiIwOrA/8 VHjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzSyWIMPjFuDqGwSJYzORNfG6wzItlB89+bHaeMHoqKrbrxiuLt jU/tbaZFQxEfIRciI53jF3zgWGzsVHwiuItstpIP7ZUOlfWq8WP7QV2FSIeWS/O6DRRt94LIkbe 6X0fJ0XJQdAF2kWbVmylRkPQivE4Q0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE770SuwIrStW/vPPEi1mVhP985Qldrj6Krbmb0uRXVtzOgmidy3IQnW+j7C6/Pa66YgArvB7jloZ/JfThi7pg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9e99:0:b0:2eb:fcc9:1d3f with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ec0e60e0f8mr4423321fa.52.1718304928166; Thu, 13 Jun 2024 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73819d1a-395a-4b74-a20c-0123fbed56bd@technologists.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:54:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: CO27BOEG5Y54WTWPSHIN7VS6CKKGDS7O X-Message-ID-Hash: CO27BOEG5Y54WTWPSHIN7VS6CKKGDS7O X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?Re=3A_Version_256_of_systemd_boasts_=2742=25_less_Unix_philosophy=27_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 2:39=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS w= rote: > On Thursday, June 13th, 2024 at 9:47 AM, Arrigo Triulzi via TUHS wrote: > > On 13 Jun 2024, at 17:39, Clem Cole clemc@ccc.com wrote: > > > IMO systemd, was >>not<< a net positive - it falls so many of these t= ests WRT to good programming and good ideas. > > > > Binary logs, =E2=80=99nuff said. > > > > Good sysadmins live & die by grep and being able to visually detect dep= artures from the norm by just looking at the =E2=80=9Cshape=E2=80=9D of log= s scrolling down a screen (before), terminal window now. > > > > Yours disgusted since v1 of that abomination. > > Part of what irks me is the lack of choice. Just like many outlets will = use GNU extensions to otherwise POSIX components, leaving the rest of the w= orld out in the rain, several bits of the Linux ecosystem have backed syste= md as the one true way and are hobbled if even usable at all with other ini= t systems out there. User software shouldn't have any attachment to a part= icular init system, it isn't meant to provide "services" beyond run this sc= ript at this time based on the conditions of boot, manage terminal lines, a= nd maybe offer some runlevels to compartmentalize operating environments. = I've seen it said elsewhere that the amount of surface area being shoved in= to PID 1 can only lead to disaster. I agree about the lack of choice, but I think the reasoning here shows a bit of an impedance mismatch between what systemd is, and what people think that it should be. In particular, it left merely being an "init system" behind a long time ago, and is now the all-singing, all-dancing service and resource management platform for the system. That's not a terrible thing to have, if the goal of your system is to be able to, well, run services and manage resources. But is systemd, as an expression of that idea, a good thing? I don't really think so. My arguments here tend to be somewhat vague, but I do believe that there is valid criticism beyond just, "It's new! It's different! I hate it!!" Portability is a good argument. Where I think many of the arguments against systemd break down is by dismissing the real problems that it solves; off the top of my head, this may include automatically restarting dependent services when a daemon crashes and is restarted. But again, just because a tool solves a real problem doesn't mean that it's a good tool, or even a good tool for solving that problem. I suspect much of the rush to systemd is driven less by enthusiasm for how it does things, and more for it being the only thing out there that solves some problem that the distro maintainers consider important (ie, that they get asked about frequently). > Are there any known attempts in the modern age to roll Linux with somethi= ng resembling research/BSD init? Alpine Linux may come closest? And of course the BSDs still exist. > That would be a nice counter to the proliferation of systemd. Even if it= doesn't make a dent in the actual uptake, at least it'd feel cathartic to = have an alternative in the opposite direction. There are still some Linux distributions that don't ship with systemd, but I think they're just delaying the inevitable. On a more meta point, there are big differences between production server systems, user-oriented systems, and research systems. Systemd feels very much like it comes from the first of those, to me; very mainframe-y. - Dan C.