From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1383 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2021 21:20:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Nov 2021 21:20:33 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5FD309C8AA; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:20:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C449C2E5; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:17:42 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="V0NHfu3l"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B39C39C2E5; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:17:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f176.google.com (mail-oi1-f176.google.com [209.85.167.176]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D2489C29F for ; Thu, 18 Nov 2021 07:17:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f176.google.com with SMTP id o4so9231996oia.10 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:17:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XBBNR6R1jNFC3OD9z9TOYQuJln5ZXKcMwEqrw3SVcxU=; b=V0NHfu3l+C56Ix2lGbN1JZ8qAYHf1Svj9y1Ua/pBps7Rb3mmJOWssWYncigsy0gsQR K2PQvoTPhaEwltJEnu2tSikd5IEnIWakdVdD3RdVNL01WTi+CcKEUhaZsPuT9LDTrdOZ JLTAE6Csery6SHlu3KuPvc52fnIntdQ30vyADp8N5xdNK9SfMCSFJNRh+Bvl1UgqiD4+ 5TdVoYG2ZDOoxZc/USFKK0MtGzcVdZpWbAbFsal9SBx2NIr3SBJyQJ5FT4PvMGxIlTsD Trl8ywKgIOUv/9xCdm4YUaY0V0K8TCd/20XxHXZTvNXJd5XVJMV1g61a/yTXVBpKUs8T 9dcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XBBNR6R1jNFC3OD9z9TOYQuJln5ZXKcMwEqrw3SVcxU=; b=R5/3ODxaQ2wvbiKeHtsJbv01z7EvQUgS0dsWSEa+md5TaN2CCSoLEwQDMep4GaW5ii FKDu3VHo5BcwU7c8Cjwet9YY5MoYQVfG9J0gq7+p9N7r+hyFZkKbUARGIg2p3dWMbtI0 Lp9cm2K04HFE+6Jeb+ewtOCkz8dGe1Vy3gT8Al9oqBhtGQjI8V9PGKCnlMQ3F+LF8YT2 rjTd+XtPlIfNGTBoPkhmBH6XkcFlCuktrCOtREcwsMlMvUn9dY4QV6A0Ese4gQ03/Y2h zv88WTCJlJYrM5BU3KOfQ9hUgxTSv51X1xCTa2/MyruQzHgr6FhZjhJEKSL/nvc/IPSW PprA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PvpWN1wK7OteohzFyrc91nBsZd8fGZG6h5/64bsEnmkjOZHu7 cmOf7w6sfgh1t4ov0hdU5wURvjJxHknbt2E6P+U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxr2nPYjMnQ5trJITcpi25//l3cAyoIqAP8bXiokepEhetD92kouB/X0HJxzNFXocB41Q+HMK0xEtFYSrILrWI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:12:: with SMTP id u18mr2816559oic.174.1637183858507; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:17:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Dan Cross Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 16:17:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005183d005d10292ca" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000005183d005d10292ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Losh wrote: > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson wrote: >> >>> Wasn't Perl created to fill this void? >>> >>> Void? I thought Perl was created to fill a much-needed gap. >>> >> There was and is a need for something to sit between Shell and C. But it >> needn't be filled by Perl. >> >> The chief problem with Perl, as I see it, is it's like 10 languages >> smashed together. To write it, you only need to know one of the 10. But >> to read it, you never know what subset you're going to see until you're >> deep in the code. >> >> Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Opensource design, >> where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low. >> >> It was undeniably influential. >> > > It's what paved the way for python to fill that gap... > I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened the floodgates for a number of relatively lightweight "scripting" languages that sat between C and the shell in terms of their functionality and expressive power. From that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but it got hijacked by Rails and Python swooped in and stole its thunder. - Dan C. --0000000000005183d005d10292ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:54 PM Warner Lo= sh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 1:48 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> w= rote:
On Wed,= Nov 17, 2021 at 11:35 AM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:
Was= n't Perl created to fill this void?

Void? I thought Perl was cre= ated to fill a much-needed gap.
There was and is= a need for something to sit between Shell and C.=C2=A0 But it needn't = be filled by Perl.

The chief problem with Perl, as= I see it, is it's like 10 languages smashed together.=C2=A0 To write i= t, you only need to know one of the 10.=C2=A0 But to read it, you never kno= w what subset you're going to see until you're deep in the code.

Perl is the victim of an experiment in exuberant, Op= ensource design, where the bar to adding a new feature was troublingly low.=

It was undeniably influential.
<= /blockquote>

It= 9;s what paved the way for python to fill that gap...

I feel that Perl, and to a lesser extent Tcl, opened= the floodgates for a number of relatively lightweight "scripting"= ; languages that sat between C and the shell in terms of their functionalit= y and expressive power. From that group, the one I liked best was Ruby, but= it got hijacked by Rails and Python swooped in and stole its thunder.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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