From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 15708 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 15:55:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 15:55:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E9A42536; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 01:55:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f42.google.com (mail-lf1-f42.google.com [209.85.167.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D591342534 for ; Sat, 28 Jan 2023 01:55:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f42.google.com with SMTP id v17so2904815lfd.7 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:55:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NUrXUHAKCYHYuAYAAQJ4EVjf6FnxXdrdIM/GyzQZTZI=; b=TzfL5nuRXEiv0fFmzxjJK+2HHK9FcDzA+YQ3P+v5vdvS2x0O7J2JspoG2kfz6PHoeK +OFBtRM06cyxshDe169UN7im1PStDg0Wx7UpGamjPnX3gYErgYmwsc7lEtV0aPZpX0E8 lKTcYVe5wxE28Lc7VTh4SjppwL2Ew4+D9QOQmHbnVMxT6AEIfhNcytXkMGYQ6eiER6Cq jvik1EAsIoE5bHQ0gRyGuUIzeNXiqzufajb7+rPwGwOcUmuwjWptXNIoqRvMFj1cyJE/ hk4qp5Xyr4AgkZ+ySXi9zaFpGkCIUIstFsGU391c0QEiYKSHQJIKp9E3D1ek71KdD34o /nhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=NUrXUHAKCYHYuAYAAQJ4EVjf6FnxXdrdIM/GyzQZTZI=; b=EQd2ltDB/OfC9jcE6uwp3qDEvvuShClu6emRJSyRfeYb7P0zODN+W3d3IZhoZh0mf4 LphOlqWO2Ck/KcNGAbYRGcoFE2TxOvg8+s5zK/IGUASZy4VHPkyVO1j5gyYhvl3ClVeB +Tol/5eWmh0rRrwinnRjSpXsQusXRBwETsZUeE3xfIurm5wf5EP4kx5cZTW0L1xC8LME IWWOuL9HbiAKgA6MS36hX60Cjpfw58vX2HSTcpNKvoce1z5XsQZu03DzcuV4EFsPeCzX E6BZ0iFLamLJDN/e0cBsEE84uIdKzRH0ZCeVE3OmeAzQTKbBdl8z0hSLDQuq75epPviB nC0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kp1b7vBbH/IvaiL2T0IR6FVT4Is3NPqTpJ89DownkBTDZtm7qHA fIDsljLOlfJmo9JYoNHgl+XPsKMX27BuQEoI3iU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtHCMc2kr/GYXhw473K4uTND9zbweNRh0mMPC1vg1WKo7fz+A32uX8AN8GorM8BskK2IwLL8OiBMyHospuBPOU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3e1b:b0:4b5:b6e8:bb54 with SMTP id i27-20020a0565123e1b00b004b5b6e8bb54mr4724027lfv.396.1674834872004; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 07:54:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230125203805.4762218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7w8rhpdczd.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20230126105626.72CD922168@orac.inputplus.co.uk> <85d0ee98-3686-b305-49d7-536589b5d3db@e-bbes.com> <45987281-a06d-810e-9689-5a8ae2c63a63@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45987281-a06d-810e-9689-5a8ae2c63a63@gmail.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:53:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a73ce05f340e12f" Message-ID-Hash: QETRW434JJ46F6WALV3L4B4BBZIFPP5T X-Message-ID-Hash: QETRW434JJ46F6WALV3L4B4BBZIFPP5T X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Setting up an X Development Environment for Mac OS List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009a73ce05f340e12f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 11:08 PM Will Senn wrote: > [snip] > I also remember that they were bemoaning having to give up their NeXT > boxes for racks and racks of some other machine to do equivalent work > (at the time, I was completely clueless as to what they were talking about). > With decades behind, I have a clue about one workstation being oh so > powerful and about server farms doing rendering, but I really don't know > nothing about NeXT, it's boxes, or what I'm really wondering about - its > relationship with unix (although I'm pretty sure there is one). I know that > Sun was working with them on OpenStep and OpenStep and the NeXT > cube were predecessors to my favorite contemporary system (my Mac), > but that's about it. So, how does NeXT fit into the unix world? And was > it all that? I remember after talking to them that I really, really wanted one... As Chet mentioned, NeXTs ran NeXTStep, which was based on Mach and 4.3-ish BSD. My sense was that they were underpowered and overpriced for the time; they were 68k based in an era where RISC processors were dominant (or becoming dominant) on the high end and they cost something like twice or more that of a contemporary Macintosh while targeting roughly the same userbase. The software was really the interesting thing on NeXT machines. Oh the hardware was nice enough, don't get me wrong, but compared to a SPARC or MIPS-based workstation, I'd choose the latter every time. However, NeXTStep was not very "Unix-y" if you were used to BSD or even System V Unixes of the time. Things as basic as the directory structure were weirdly foreign (though will look familiar to users of macOS now), and it used "netinfo", which was a distributed directory service they'd built, rather than NIS or anything remotely interoperable with the rest of the world. But the NeXTStep user interface was very nice, and Display PostScript was beautiful. The Objective-C foundation classes were very powerful. But it was clear that you were meant to interact with it through the GUI, and CLI-style interaction was an almost totally separate universe (or so it seemed to me at the time). One got the sense that NeXT was targeting users who had sort of outgrown the Macintosh, but weren't ready to make the leap to a full-on workstation on the low-end, and simultaneously trying to bring users from high-end machines into a totally new ecosystem. But that was a really small market and application vendors didn't jump on board: the Unix applications weren't there, and neither were the standards from the Mac world. A few things got ported, and that was cool, but perhaps sadly, Jobs just couldn't pull off the magic twice, and NeXT failed. Much of the technology lives on in macOS, though. There's a great book about it, "Steve Jobs and the NeXT Big Thing" that's worth a read. - Dan C. --0000000000009a73ce05f340e12f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 11:08 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> w= rote:
> [snip]
> I also remember that they were bemoaning havi= ng to give up their NeXT
> boxes for racks and racks of some o= ther machine to do equivalent work
> (at the time, I was compl= etely clueless as to what they were talking about).
> With dec= ades behind, I have a clue about one workstation being oh so
>= powerful and about server farms doing rendering, but I really don't kn= ow
> nothing about NeXT, it's boxes, or what I'm reall= y wondering about - its
> relationship with unix (although I&#= 39;m pretty sure there is one). I know that
> Sun was working = with them on OpenStep and OpenStep and the NeXT
> cube were pr= edecessors to my favorite contemporary system (my Mac),
> but = that's about it. So, how does NeXT fit into the unix world? And was
> it all that? I remember after talking to them that I really, re= ally wanted one...

As Chet mentioned, NeXTs ran Ne= XTStep, which was based on Mach and 4.3-ish BSD. My sense was that they=C2= =A0were underpowered and overpriced for the time; they were 68k based in an= era where RISC processors were dominant (or becoming dominant) on the high= end and they cost something like twice or more that of a contemporary Maci= ntosh while targeting roughly the same userbase.

T= he software was really the interesting thing on NeXT machines. Oh the hardw= are was nice enough, don't get me wrong, but compared to a SPARC or MIP= S-based workstation, I'd choose the latter every time. However, NeXTSte= p was not very "Unix-y" if you were used to BSD or even System V = Unixes of the time. Things as basic as the directory structure were weirdly= foreign (though will look familiar to users of macOS now), and it used &qu= ot;netinfo", which was a distributed directory service they'd buil= t, rather than NIS or anything remotely interoperable with the rest of the = world. But the NeXTStep user interface was very nice, and Display PostScrip= t was beautiful. The Objective-C foundation classes were very powerful. But= it was clear that you were meant to interact with it through the GUI, and = CLI-style interaction was an almost totally separate universe (or so it see= med to me at the time).

One got the sense that NeX= T was targeting users who had sort of outgrown the Macintosh, but weren'= ;t ready to make the leap to a full-on workstation on the low-end, and simu= ltaneously trying to bring users from high-end machines into a totally new = ecosystem. But that was a really small market and application vendors didn&= #39;t jump on board: the Unix applications weren't there, and neither w= ere the=C2=A0standards from the Mac world. A few things got ported, and tha= t was cool, but perhaps sadly, Jobs just couldn't pull off the magic tw= ice, and NeXT failed. Much of the technology lives on in macOS,=C2=A0though= .

There's a great book about it, "Steve J= obs and the NeXT Big Thing" that's worth a read.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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