From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4357 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2023 19:05:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2023 19:05:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6E74263A; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 05:05:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f181.google.com (mail-lj1-f181.google.com [209.85.208.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 168B24262F for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 05:05:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f181.google.com with SMTP id o12so13538841ljp.11 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:05:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/xSJqHaZE7cdzgnel+stmzLcw4MZtymAUkc6L6ryw84=; b=LNpwfSAp2YuQNJUvK9UVKFB5kV2yQ02ZaC7UQZ0hZzisZhrUEy6PgHxKN9uRdAgNff eMzniU7z1FKjgvwlNRnxRyOpTL61vhBHFHt3ejNT2nuV6oWOONLNUvEBNtcgNt0VmC93 +nqq8SdPtAzx8Lo09L4LZY2BHiRnhUjV7WcefgsSgtl0+mQbsxfGszHMKDK714IvCmmm 5HQx2M8PwBo+w85KeXP8lq7kmWesVtuUZraU+uMRUt1AhPqsybRzspH19lHXfpteF9go gjx+Zk/fo+iM29YjK6a7SIUt0n/qzVSt2DUk5TRmEh2YhgzE/FJNezz7a55KmepHpUZB 7SWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=/xSJqHaZE7cdzgnel+stmzLcw4MZtymAUkc6L6ryw84=; b=w6/11OBu3g39Sdw0vQCuI1Uyih/B1m0IbD9D0MLSwFl20duNqJy5wMAYV4NzHNvw61 X/VD1V8vNTLM3lFRqVMxJTgELb3dSCb2l+txgNIAmc23mvaRQUsM02ajJSrSo66PRoEV OCr8Gl+O6fziqXm7zU2n2CzRL2DpP3zG4IGFUPo0TCOBsQTiFq0L+Gd+pL0P0nLRnRx/ PLE7kqEBXpyyhaVyg2lmOSr1Z9eg22CXDqzr/KmyMcCP2DQradhk/5xbcjzrkVA81+/Z aCtlQUZU7xDO99oc5BhdyXJUsQ+vRblO0lgSX/JoujnxuRwC2OJ7BDwSbNKW/dVbqmha wuyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXRRAlRk13DDiC4fBAiUsua12b29S3hbUioCjwGmN4TPb0BQHwf lS2Vd8ggo2QSH9NEalSMLyLhpGrY6tMtBxqNEnzgyxfyFAo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/bBbcPqVyPKQ7TUs4cLF7c0vDuXAAPMZnK0nMnGWd9mr4FELlvZiP5z+cuGVX9uXiy+yBxUzBuWrfAsGIBgnY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9417:0:b0:290:5970:ce1d with SMTP id i23-20020a2e9417000000b002905970ce1dmr966320ljh.48.1675105449214; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 11:04:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> From: Dan Cross Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 14:03:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: SZCFPGL7PH5E4ZAXAOTQ2UDPJTDC3JFB X-Message-ID-Hash: SZCFPGL7PH5E4ZAXAOTQ2UDPJTDC3JFB X-MailFrom: crossd@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar with Unix > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a different > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing mental models > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. > > > > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a widespread > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, but > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. > > > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend old stuff. > > > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate if > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? > > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not invalidate > people's knowledge while innovating. > > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently and > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. That's > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try your > new stuff. > > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher barrier, > much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that and > that means other people ignore their work. > > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it. Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see _why_ people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The system had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot of folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then that's a shame. - Dan C.