From: Tyler Adams <coppero1237@gmail.com>
To: Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles?
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 23:45:38 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAEuQd1B+gGMnDtU59ooFzYHnK2cfOxj5FhufE-GTNjkKU4_TYA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2M0_X3Tw7371jnrMvUiDBOFDRW1Y6Cycmu_QKnWhotU4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Fair points about macOS, I hated using my mac in 2018 (thankfully I've
lived in linux bliss since), but I wouldn't say macOS is representative of
the software industry as a whole. Especially as you said iOS is Apple's
real cash cow and apple's been focusing on better *mac hardware *and from
what I hear that M1 delivers*.*
The modern software industry is mostly over the browser (or an app), and
honestly almost every site I use these days is pretty fast and stable.
Unless it has too many ads.
Tyler
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 11:28 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> Tyler - I'm with Jon on this. I'll pick on Apple here. It used to be a
> huge difference between MSFT SW and MacOS was that the systems folks at
> Apple really tested the system and the result was that Mac OS with way
> really stable. My system never panic'ed except when I ran Windows under
> parallels. After 3-4 years ago, that stopped being true. Crashes occur,
> just like Windows BSD. It's not unusual for my Mac to panic just letting
> it run overnight - which is just backups and the like. Yes, I have a
> multiple monitors, a zillion windows open etc..
>
>
> I come downstairs and the screen is blank (it should be, I have it turn
> off after no activity), but I move the mouse or try to type something --
> nothing wakes the system up again. I've chased it to Mac OS running out of
> memory and not gracefully handling the lowe memory situation. Sad, I have
> 16G of RAM a 1T SSD and many TB of memory on Thunderbolt 3 connectivity.
>
> Look I grew up with a 256K byte RAM Unix V6 system on an 11/34, 3 RK05s
> and an RK07 for storage. We swapped. Yeah, I never ran a window manager,
> but he had a number of 9600K terminals on DH11's and we were happy. You
> could see it swapping like mad, but that system never crashed. It just ran
> and ran and ran.
>
> IMO, this is what I think Jon is referring. Those systems were stable
> because we tested them and found and fixed the issue. These days, Apple
> no longer cares about Mac OS because iOS is where they now put their
> effort, although I'm not super impressed there either, but I also don't
> push it like I do Mac OS. Sad really. If I could get the day-2-day
> applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be there in
> a heartbeat.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:07 PM Tyler Adams <coppero1237@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Really? Except for one particularly incompetent team, I cannot recall
>> working with nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity for performance.
>>
>> Tyler
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tyler Adams writes:
>>> >
>>> > For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes:
>>> > - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into
>>> the
>>> > mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the
>>> > "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led
>>> to a
>>> > momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements.
>>> > - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less
>>> and
>>> > less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature)
>>> optimization
>>> > as much.
>>>
>>> It's interesting in more than one way.
>>>
>>> The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure than I find
>>> acceptable.
>>>
>>> As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse. I
>>> haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more premature
>>> optimization that didn't optimize anything.
>>>
>>> My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable products
>>> with poor performance being delivered more quickly. I'm just kind of
>>> weird
>>> in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly. Especially
>>> since
>>> much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep people
>>> buying, not to provide things that are actually useful.
>>>
>>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-01-30 21:46 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-01-25 11:10 Tyler Adams
2021-01-25 12:32 ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-26 2:06 ` M Douglas McIlroy
2021-01-26 2:53 ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-26 10:22 ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-26 12:26 ` John P. Linderman
2021-01-26 15:23 ` Clem Cole
2021-01-26 16:00 ` Niklas Karlsson
2021-01-26 16:13 ` Adam Thornton
[not found] ` <CAKH6PiXKjksEpQOMMMQTbcsMvX2thz3WzqjoRWJAsXnZ4Eq_iQ@mail.gmail.com>
2021-01-30 19:01 ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-30 19:50 ` Jon Steinhart
2021-01-30 20:06 ` Tyler Adams
2021-01-30 21:28 ` Clem Cole
2021-01-30 21:42 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-01-30 21:45 ` Tyler Adams [this message]
2021-01-30 22:31 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 22:28 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:11 ` [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2021-01-30 23:17 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:22 ` Warner Losh
2021-01-30 23:31 ` [TUHS] [SPAM] " Larry McVoy
2021-01-30 23:37 ` Jon Steinhart
2021-01-30 23:54 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31 12:23 ` [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: FreeBSD behind the times? Dermot Tynan
2021-01-31 0:00 ` [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) Bakul Shah
2021-02-09 2:15 ` [TUHS] " Will Senn
2021-02-09 2:16 ` Will Senn
2021-02-09 2:30 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2021-01-31 0:39 ` Steve Nickolas
2021-01-31 1:47 ` Will Senn
2021-01-31 2:25 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31 2:52 ` Will Senn
2021-01-31 3:00 ` Larry McVoy
2021-01-31 3:06 ` Will Senn
2021-01-31 3:32 ` John Cowan
2021-02-04 5:43 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-04 6:10 ` Angus Robinson
2021-02-04 7:46 ` Andy Kosela
2021-02-04 22:25 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-04 15:45 ` Will Senn
2021-02-04 16:03 ` Henry Bent
2021-02-04 16:32 ` Dan Cross
2021-02-04 16:49 ` Will Senn
2021-02-04 17:46 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-04 18:41 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-04 22:28 ` George Michaelson
2021-02-04 22:41 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05 0:33 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-05 5:17 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05 14:18 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-05 18:16 ` Warner Losh
2021-02-05 18:21 ` ron minnich
2021-02-06 0:03 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-06 2:06 ` Dan Cross
2021-02-06 3:01 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-06 1:18 ` John Gilmore
2021-02-06 1:43 ` joe mcguckin
2021-02-06 1:55 ` Bakul Shah
2021-02-05 20:50 ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-06 0:21 ` Brad Spencer
2021-02-06 2:22 ` Rico Pajarola
2021-02-06 2:55 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-06 3:07 ` Will Senn
2021-02-27 8:54 ` Stuart Remphrey
2021-02-06 4:55 ` John Cowan
2021-02-04 7:46 ` Chris Torek
2021-02-04 15:47 ` Will Senn
2021-02-11 21:01 ` Angel M Alganza
2021-01-30 23:09 ` [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? John Cowan
2021-01-30 23:22 ` Jon Steinhart
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