Fair points about macOS, I hated using my mac in 2018 (thankfully I've lived in linux bliss since), but I wouldn't say macOS is representative of the software industry as a whole. Especially as you said iOS is Apple's real cash cow and apple's been focusing on better *mac hardware *and from what I hear that M1 delivers*.* The modern software industry is mostly over the browser (or an app), and honestly almost every site I use these days is pretty fast and stable. Unless it has too many ads. Tyler On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 11:28 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Tyler - I'm with Jon on this. I'll pick on Apple here. It used to be a > huge difference between MSFT SW and MacOS was that the systems folks at > Apple really tested the system and the result was that Mac OS with way > really stable. My system never panic'ed except when I ran Windows under > parallels. After 3-4 years ago, that stopped being true. Crashes occur, > just like Windows BSD. It's not unusual for my Mac to panic just letting > it run overnight - which is just backups and the like. Yes, I have a > multiple monitors, a zillion windows open etc.. > > > I come downstairs and the screen is blank (it should be, I have it turn > off after no activity), but I move the mouse or try to type something -- > nothing wakes the system up again. I've chased it to Mac OS running out of > memory and not gracefully handling the lowe memory situation. Sad, I have > 16G of RAM a 1T SSD and many TB of memory on Thunderbolt 3 connectivity. > > Look I grew up with a 256K byte RAM Unix V6 system on an 11/34, 3 RK05s > and an RK07 for storage. We swapped. Yeah, I never ran a window manager, > but he had a number of 9600K terminals on DH11's and we were happy. You > could see it swapping like mad, but that system never crashed. It just ran > and ran and ran. > > IMO, this is what I think Jon is referring. Those systems were stable > because we tested them and found and fixed the issue. These days, Apple > no longer cares about Mac OS because iOS is where they now put their > effort, although I'm not super impressed there either, but I also don't > push it like I do Mac OS. Sad really. If I could get the day-2-day > applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be there in > a heartbeat. > > Clem > ᐧ > > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:07 PM Tyler Adams wrote: > >> Really? Except for one particularly incompetent team, I cannot recall >> working with nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity for performance. >> >> Tyler >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: >> >>> Tyler Adams writes: >>> > >>> > For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes: >>> > - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into >>> the >>> > mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the >>> > "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led >>> to a >>> > momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements. >>> > - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less >>> and >>> > less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) >>> optimization >>> > as much. >>> >>> It's interesting in more than one way. >>> >>> The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure than I find >>> acceptable. >>> >>> As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse. I >>> haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more premature >>> optimization that didn't optimize anything. >>> >>> My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable products >>> with poor performance being delivered more quickly. I'm just kind of >>> weird >>> in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly. Especially >>> since >>> much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep people >>> buying, not to provide things that are actually useful. >>> >>