From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26735 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2021 21:46:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2021 21:46:17 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DD1689C7B3; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 07:46:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB209C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 07:45:53 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="jgYLeOv/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id ADECA9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 07:45:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f175.google.com (mail-lj1-f175.google.com [209.85.208.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2D329C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 07:45:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f175.google.com with SMTP id u4so13271852ljh.6 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:45:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xinWP8dIiPDunHbwWuIBkubrU86QaVMgQNlqSaRuJx8=; b=jgYLeOv/rZUcmqlEKdx2L3cvmwTf2V6E0cNaj0LNvqleaxDNzcB+Wn6qf9m5qfOp8R Kont1g37k+mH496AY7Uuh2CRvxqQefbC/ICmRWEFY0SelpE4YqZCnAG5aZIexjicNRkr EaikIBmO1OoWjhZ7Z0tnMV/nLw6KtpSiw9bSr+YhI6dm6Qq+Lea/Zzr0IhT83FM9IWOQ LLvIdiBtlwSbSB9gsBJiyhxgWPc3Y7pvVvcTx6pX6vNO3HY36Vm+2VEDPjVKVDbeVnm+ lDa57p3TzigTF5Xg54EznOGixFWSh5sSrqABvREsCPGVuDW1edtxslSO902VZ4wARmsE 0Xng== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xinWP8dIiPDunHbwWuIBkubrU86QaVMgQNlqSaRuJx8=; b=HNlP7G97VF4yMdVAOPn92EEZUNp4nW+YYPYuLg/R1qkUFH5J5Tfp8S4wJBDQR5362Y HZgFDBb90T2L27eYxkD4u0RonAtqiswpc029Y8MAE+mZup8tSehT2gaQupbcgrhq1TA+ ki0muFRqDS6yMBaQOLomPw1TGxSCKMtXDX0fDkggRCL8//OZKFYa3X1T3oi7RNMls3V+ vPJxt/IdWHWJReteMqtfMLI//XPWkLB8tCm13IXt+Jm944qXAxwrwBcw6Hd4BaUkiK/E tGTmrBK9UNxWyoSm58v3rg1bUiYTLkD6V6bBqrm5cFC5tbhvCf/oTIYVFzq2nCKBOer0 cMpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533UtwX9VOoOsiX0C06VGWiPihiTngnv3l1dQqw0tcJbNshdJq6O epZM2v/o4DOUgmPGttT1doTxJjV47H5PGXaU1K7nxUmnp1NC5DA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywR/6RNnq/OY7OqKZ19PcgmYgAl+c/VmijUeph05mgV7shmRZHz0ukPC+J7CqSd1Bgt3qUIijddiLDjRlq6U0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9c88:: with SMTP id x8mr6154052lji.409.1612043149178; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:45:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tyler Adams Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 23:45:38 +0200 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000044fa4205ba250b06" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000044fa4205ba250b06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fair points about macOS, I hated using my mac in 2018 (thankfully I've lived in linux bliss since), but I wouldn't say macOS is representative of the software industry as a whole. Especially as you said iOS is Apple's real cash cow and apple's been focusing on better *mac hardware *and from what I hear that M1 delivers*.* The modern software industry is mostly over the browser (or an app), and honestly almost every site I use these days is pretty fast and stable. Unless it has too many ads. Tyler On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 11:28 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Tyler - I'm with Jon on this. I'll pick on Apple here. It used to be a > huge difference between MSFT SW and MacOS was that the systems folks at > Apple really tested the system and the result was that Mac OS with way > really stable. My system never panic'ed except when I ran Windows under > parallels. After 3-4 years ago, that stopped being true. Crashes occur= , > just like Windows BSD. It's not unusual for my Mac to panic just lettin= g > it run overnight - which is just backups and the like. Yes, I have a > multiple monitors, a zillion windows open etc.. > > > I come downstairs and the screen is blank (it should be, I have it turn > off after no activity), but I move the mouse or try to type something -- > nothing wakes the system up again. I've chased it to Mac OS running out = of > memory and not gracefully handling the lowe memory situation. Sad, I hav= e > 16G of RAM a 1T SSD and many TB of memory on Thunderbolt 3 connectivity. > > Look I grew up with a 256K byte RAM Unix V6 system on an 11/34, 3 RK05s > and an RK07 for storage. We swapped. Yeah, I never ran a window manager= , > but he had a number of 9600K terminals on DH11's and we were happy. You > could see it swapping like mad, but that system never crashed. It just r= an > and ran and ran. > > IMO, this is what I think Jon is referring. Those systems were stable > because we tested them and found and fixed the issue. These days, Apple > no longer cares about Mac OS because iOS is where they now put their > effort, although I'm not super impressed there either, but I also don't > push it like I do Mac OS. Sad really. If I could get the day-2-day > applications that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be there i= n > a heartbeat. > > Clem > =E1=90=A7 > > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:07 PM Tyler Adams wrote= : > >> Really? Except for one particularly incompetent team, I cannot recall >> working with nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity for performance. >> >> Tyler >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: >> >>> Tyler Adams writes: >>> > >>> > For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes: >>> > - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into >>> the >>> > mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the >>> > "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led >>> to a >>> > momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements. >>> > - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less >>> and >>> > less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) >>> optimization >>> > as much. >>> >>> It's interesting in more than one way. >>> >>> The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure than I fi= nd >>> acceptable. >>> >>> As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse. = I >>> haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more premature >>> optimization that didn't optimize anything. >>> >>> My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable produc= ts >>> with poor performance being delivered more quickly. I'm just kind of >>> weird >>> in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly. Especially >>> since >>> much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep peopl= e >>> buying, not to provide things that are actually useful. >>> >> --00000000000044fa4205ba250b06 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fair points about macOS, I hated using my mac in 2018= (thankfully I've lived in linux bliss since), but I wouldn't say m= acOS is representative of the software industry as a whole. Especially as = you said iOS is Apple's real cash cow and apple's been focusing on= better mac hardware and from what I hear that M1 delivers.

The modern software industry is mostly over the bro= wser (or an app), and honestly almost every site I use these days is pretty= fast and stable. Unless it has too many ads.

= =C2=A0Tyler


On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 11:28 PM Clem Cole <<= a href=3D"mailto:clemc@ccc.com">clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Tyler - I&= #39;m with Jon on this.=C2=A0 I'll pick on Apple here.=C2=A0 It used to= be a huge difference=C2=A0between MSFT SW and MacOS was that the systems f= olks at Apple really tested the system and the result was that Mac=C2=A0OS= =C2=A0with way really stable.=C2=A0 =C2=A0My system never panic'ed exce= pt when I ran Windows under parallels.=C2=A0 =C2=A0After 3-4 years ago, tha= t stopped being true.=C2=A0 Crashes occur, just like Windows BSD.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0It's not unusual for my Mac to panic just letting it run overnight -= which is just backups and the like.=C2=A0 Yes, I have a multiple monitors,= a zillion windows open etc..


I come down= stairs and the screen is blank (it should be, I have it turn off after no a= ctivity), but I move the mouse or try to type something=C2=A0 -- nothing wa= kes the system up again.=C2=A0 I've chased it to Mac OS running out of = memory and not gracefully handling the lowe memory=C2=A0situation.=C2=A0 Sa= d, I have 16G of RAM a 1T SSD and many TB of memory on Thunderbolt 3 connec= tivity.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

Look I grew up with a 256K byte= RAM Unix V6 system on an 11/34, 3 RK05s and an RK07 for storage.=C2=A0 We = swapped.=C2=A0 Yeah, I never ran a window manager, but he had a number of 9= 600K terminals on DH11's and we were happy.=C2=A0 You could see it swap= ping like mad, but that system never crashed.=C2=A0 It just ran and ran and= ran.

IMO, this is what I think Jon is referring.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Those systems were stable because we tested them and found and fi= xed the issue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0These days, Apple no longer cares about Mac OS b= ecause iOS is where they now put their effort,=C2=A0although I'm not su= per impressed there=C2=A0either, but I also don't push it like I do Mac= OS.=C2=A0 Sad really.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If I could get the day-2-day application= s that I need to work on FreeBSD, I suspect I would be there in a heartbeat= .=C2=A0

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
On Sa= t, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:07 PM Tyler Adams <coppero1237@gmail.com> wrote:
Reall= y? Except for one particularly incompetent team, I cannot recall working w= ith nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity for performance.
<= div>
=C2=A0Tyler

<= /div>
O= n Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
Tyler Adams writes:
>
> For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes:
> - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into t= he
> mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture= and the
> "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall&q= uot; style, has led to a
> momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements.
> - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less a= nd
> less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) opt= imization
> as much.

It's interesting in more than one way.

The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure tha= n I find
acceptable.

As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse.=C2=A0= I
haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more prema= ture
optimization that didn't optimize anything.

My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable products with poor performance being delivered more quickly.=C2=A0 I'm just kind= of weird
in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly.=C2=A0 Especia= lly since
much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep people buying, not to provide things that are actually useful.
--00000000000044fa4205ba250b06--