From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6043 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2021 19:02:37 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2021 19:02:37 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 58B749C7DA; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 05:02:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CF59C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 05:01:49 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="G7oyu1D8"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 971DF9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 05:01:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f48.google.com (mail-lf1-f48.google.com [209.85.167.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 285509C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 05:01:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f48.google.com with SMTP id m22so17204634lfg.5 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YjmToghqK405APfgP6QIBx47qk88ivWmG0G6zGlbTW4=; b=G7oyu1D8shsyTNjlniqhkRmoKsiqAUm3Kh74HzwzCZFpqAZ4IeSHgWAq5V63V29njW kYdvYRpgHPTvgSlVhgfNqyxkETdxWmwxUQUBquItbsNwVRtcU71wmWxGjh7g6+oahMiK 0uuRSDylueZDu45k5bhIFWBgB/Frc2iEChh/k+f8OIEhYxbh/H+1a3fdm3fBU77q4ifa Ka7FBNlBRZzVqtn2VwcEnoAlUOcyS8Ey/YSsoqnhtDej4SlB1C3U5zfQQ6AvODq6IWcM KtPqzc5FNYs06qfHP7ZYJD2eC9fh/dNe29+q47I8JXGzI5BCe5XGlKgwLEPtL/VDnX/2 dilw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=YjmToghqK405APfgP6QIBx47qk88ivWmG0G6zGlbTW4=; b=dWTZP97ygHFhldmQP7Pb5yJO955RFEFBxsysLvUvjm92xdlUpkrLahKrYFek1ndo7z 28gNUCrk38Hok2Z36iWg8zF/Xij4zO5rcTxAN3BafWHd8D5TYg+uUIzuNvYOOhCOmJfk WO9oshh7/zSihFA6RG2N5AiuGP+v81/F/lg+pgkwWKDHhl934t/SDxAEGoNdycYL5n3+ s/zLAoiNjbWVOfqSxaPlmjNGU6QKJiErkskM7jRYyCD8KVNCVDTr3C5P0gHyDajYnNtY x3T5gb/NLabSR88p78o9TYcHiLOyIqNSIGaK8Zchjl5CsWZQZyZ12yPdAGejfOoWLten phZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310VK+dfJ1ezPZNeiQXf/nXM4j5HSRM2zNpOJzpYuWJQq0Y3DGh 0EXTUqUBgeUr5CaN4pjbwtzDd1H9ih594LXmbQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+7n//43OU/pwMeqrKROL1/U6T6uhHJvChMPsfi8PQpNIe5Xxom/mUk6UL12kiUjbcB+cbEg+kPbxK+h8PqWM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6a07:: with SMTP id u7mr4742574lfu.97.1612033303224; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 11:01:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tyler Adams Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:01:32 +0200 Message-ID: To: M Douglas McIlroy , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000067a77b05ba22c01a" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000067a77b05ba22c01a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes: - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into the mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led to a momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements. - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less and less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) optimization as much. Tyler On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:10 AM M Douglas McIlroy < m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > Have you spotted an evolutionary trend toward better, more productive > programmers? Or has programmer productivity risen across the board due to > better tools? Arguably what's happened is that principle has been > self-obsoleting, for we have cut back on the demand for unskilled (i.e. > less capable) programmers. A broad moral principle may be in play: > programmers should work to put themselves out of business, i.e. it is wrong > to be doing the same kind of work (or working in the same way) tomorrowas > yesterday. > > Doug > > > On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 5:23 AM Tyler Adams wrote: > >> Looking at the 1978 list, the last one really stands out: >> >> "Use tools in preference to unskilled help to lighten a programming task" >> -- The concept of unskilled help for a programming task...doesn't really >> exist in 2020. The only special case is doing unskilled labor yourself. >> What unskilled tasks did people used to do back in the day? >> >> Tyler >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:07 AM M Douglas McIlroy < >> m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >>> It might be interesting to compare your final list with the two lists in >>> the 1978 special issue of the BSTJ--one in the Foreword, the other in the >>> revised version of the Ritchi/Thompson article from the CACM. How have >>> perceptions or values changed over time? >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:32 AM Steve Nickolas >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2021, Tyler Adams wrote: >>>> >>>> > I'm writing about my 5 favorite unix design principles on my blog this >>>> > week, and it got me wondering what others' favorite unix design >>>> principles >>>> > are? For reference, mine are: >>>> > >>>> > - Rule of Separation (from TAOUP < >>>> http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/> >>>> > ) >>>> > - Let the Machine Do the Dirty Work (from Elements of Programming >>>> Style) >>>> > - Rule of Silence (from TAOUP < >>>> http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/>) >>>> > - Data Dominates (Rob Pike #5) >>>> > - The SPOT (Single Point of Truth) Rule (from TAOUP >>>> > ) >>>> > >>>> > Tyler >>>> > >>>> >>>> 1. Pipes >>>> 2. Text as the preferred format for input and output >>>> 3. 'Most everything as a file >>>> 4. The idea of simple tools that are optimized for a single task >>>> 5. A powerful scripting language built into the system that, combined >>>> with >>>> 1-4, makes writing new tools heaps easier. >>>> >>>> -uso. >>>> >>> --00000000000067a77b05ba22c01a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For sure, I've seen at least two= interesting changes:
- market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into the mai= nstream in the form of=20 Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the "agile" cult= ure. This, over=20 the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led to a momentous improvem= ent in=20 overall productivity improvements.
- As coders get pulled away fr= om the machine and performance is less and less in coders hands, engineers= aren't sucked into (premature) optimization as much.

=
=C2=A0Tyler
=

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:10 AM M Douglas McIlroy <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartm= outh.edu> wrote:
Have you spotted an evolutionary trend toward bett= er, more productive programmers? Or has programmer productivity risen acros= s the board due to better tools?=C2=A0 Arguably what's happened is that= principle has been self-obsoleting, for we have cut back on the demand for= unskilled (i.e. less capable) programmers. A broad=C2=A0moral principle=C2= =A0 may be in play: programmers should work to put themselves out of busine= ss, i.e. it is wrong to be doing the same kind of work (or working in the s= ame way) tomorrowas yesterday.=C2=A0

Doug

=

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 5:23 AM Tyler Adams <coppero1237@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
Looking at the 1978 list, the last one really stands out:
"Use tools in preference to unskilled help to lighten a program= ming task" -- The concept of unskilled help for a programming task...d= oesn't really exist in 2020. The only special case is doing unskilled l= abor yourself. What unskilled tasks did people used to do back in the day?<= br>

Tyler

=

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:07 AM M Dougl= as McIlroy <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
It mig= ht be interesting to compare your final list with the two lists in the 1978= special issue of the BSTJ--one in the Foreword, the other in the revised v= ersion of the Ritchi/Thompson article from the CACM. How have perceptions o= r values changed over time?

Doug


On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 7:32 AM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> w= rote:
On Mon, 25= Jan 2021, Tyler Adams wrote:

> I'm writing about my 5 favorite unix design principles on my blog = this
> week, and it got me wondering what others' favorite unix design pr= inciples
> are? For reference, mine are:
>
> - Rule of Separation (from TAOUP <http://catb.org/~= esr/writings/taoup/html/>
> )
> - Let the Machine Do the Dirty Work (from Elements of Programming Styl= e)
> - Rule of Silence (from TAOUP <http://catb.org/~esr= /writings/taoup/html/>)
> - Data Dominates (Rob Pike #5)
> - The SPOT (Single Point of Truth) Rule (from TAOUP
> <http://catb.org/~esr/writings/taoup/html/>)=
>
> Tyler
>

1. Pipes
2. Text as the preferred format for input and output
3. 'Most everything as a file
4. The idea of simple tools that are optimized for a single task
5. A powerful scripting language built into the system that, combined with =
1-4, makes writing new tools heaps easier.

-uso.
--00000000000067a77b05ba22c01a--