From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id ab1866fe for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 04:12:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 243F59D71B; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:12:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E2E9D71C; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:11:49 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="aYS6JEit"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F01F49D71B; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:11:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f45.google.com (mail-lf1-f45.google.com [209.85.167.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 400739D68F for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 14:11:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f45.google.com with SMTP id t21so297063lfe.9 for ; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:11:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oVCouIL0YqL1B5JRzFNp3YWcCu1D6TGQkktZWT2TUEI=; b=aYS6JEitUQydPGUfFcZon50wQO/VEj5nB0kIgMDbq6iQ/aVWYNbWH5iVyD7bkFeTO8 ER1qxJnSjM285SRf8KJPuZSXvDe1q224xjznu81BNBYiqXUm+Wgwv4aEw65rRghfJ+M/ e5VwB9cMO3QOOd2Zx1kSVsk1qbe0je3GBt8y8Ykrp+gUR2tuzsH4+PcMwb7BCQp0WXJ0 aZ4hvoiFsPvIU0rbdwB5t2H+lDnQmLI3QtVFAfVw4gnB3+elrZLVw1FiV1yvx7WtWXBJ bTPnb9bYcAt/kuFpxBQdveRNSoLQVo/cFYXOVO5aYWGaxAfy2oW9JsTPj67atqtrDMiu mE3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oVCouIL0YqL1B5JRzFNp3YWcCu1D6TGQkktZWT2TUEI=; b=TBnwUicDnST0cqw3vVPqb41EBm+2eXKYJdqZx1UschzOSZN++ILP0PG3UH9XSfNtvM Clo0lnYAadCuqDrCbG17wVdYg15papSgSICTYH1eBdWvXgskIyiGQLYdhXUmxufd2htg Fu+OgLxZ8jF5ycMhxW9pxk6OzX/KNNoc5FQXETW9RQDIGhaCn4OlyTz0MltlLyWldhOs WTk8kWDsI0BMCUD2994cRLoiof89bXmGttrMkkuNW0E/hXfUjSnv3EATLomb3i2mPLXT t0dFsAtKK3piRXBJB3py/jgQzcgls+KbrqbPbTK6C1z75qZqI2dsBuMTG9Oni7CHhG4X KKOg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1GSTj9/gXjlC27R9M1d/pr29emvoHll2SPvdWIgBP+YbA/ET7Y aDpc7iJZD1rutL9zI0neIzYMxEOSClVo1xFivQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsoLwuSuUGXxS2XUemF51udPSlrWBqXtnpZK6P9y9jVyHOPSSMhevAQsLIvPRS5naO2+GYvp7cIj+/WdrQVjc4= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5299:: with SMTP id q25mr698597lfm.213.1583295104487; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:11:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202003031815.023IFSlD493028@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tyler Adams Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:11:32 +0200 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000047165b059fff9ec2" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Command line options and complexity X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000047165b059fff9ec2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > These go all the way back to v7 unix, where ls has an option to reverse the sort order (which could have been done by passing the output to tac). Good point. Why was this done in v7 unix and why wasn't it thrown out? Tyler On Tue, Mar 3, 2020, 20:45 Adam Thornton wrote: > I've heard people say that there isn't really any alternative to this kind > of complexity for command line tools, but people who say that have never > really tried the alternative, something like PowerShell. I have plenty of > complaints about PowerShell, but passing structured data around and easily > being able to operate on structured data without having to hold metadata > information in my head so that I can pass the appropriate metadata to the > right command line tools at that right places the pipeline isn't among my > complaints3 . > > Somewhat disingenuous. I mean, yes, that's true, but on the other hand it > means that you have to keep the "what Powershell commands operate on what > structure" in your head instead, since you can no longer assume the > pipelines to be a universal interface. > > Same basic problem as CMS Pipelines. Fantastically powerful, and nowhere > near as easy to compose good functionality as "it's just a byte stream." > > Adam > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM Jon Steinhart wrote: > >> OK, this should be good for some conversation. A friend sent me this >> link today: http://danluu.com/cli-complexity/ >> > --00000000000047165b059fff9ec2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0These go all the way bac= k to v7 unix, where=C2=A0ls=C2=A0has an option to reverse the sort order (w= hich could have been done by passing the output to=C2=A0tac).

Good point. Why was this done in v7 u= nix and why wasn't it thrown out?

Tyle= r

O= n Tue, Mar 3, 2020, 20:45 Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wr= ote:
I've heard people say that there isn't really an= y alternative to this=20 kind of complexity for command line tools, but people who say that have=20 never really tried the alternative, something like PowerShell. I have=20 plenty of complaints about PowerShell, but passing structured data=20 around and easily being able to operate on structured data without=20 having to hold metadata information in my head so that I can pass the=20 appropriate metadata to the right command line tools at that right=20 places the pipeline isn't among my complaints3.

Somewhat disingenuous.=C2=A0 I mean,= yes, that's true, but on the other hand it means that you have to keep= the "what Powershell commands operate on what structure" in your= head instead, since you can no longer assume the pipelines to be a univers= al interface.

Same basic problem as CMS Pipelines.= =C2=A0 Fantastically powerful, and nowhere near as easy to compose good fun= ctionality as "it's just a byte stream."

=
Adam

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
OK, this should be good for some conversation.=C2=A0 A= friend sent me this
link today: http://danluu.com/cli-complexity/=
--00000000000047165b059fff9ec2--