From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14003 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2021 20:07:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 30 Jan 2021 20:07:29 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4A73A9C7A0; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 06:07:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076BF9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 06:07:01 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="uZXKsvvZ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BA12C9C653; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 06:06:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f182.google.com (mail-lj1-f182.google.com [209.85.208.182]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C515C9C63D for ; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 06:06:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f182.google.com with SMTP id t8so14597837ljk.10 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:06:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3V/OZFOSp27RaGeJX44e0xYd70e/rF2ExFkYP6lQaZc=; b=uZXKsvvZXMRRbU60L7daqDuLKHbibTr5wXeybSDGQgYQUAvFlzWGYn7AXyDjnnLFZZ O6TksIgFgRs7cqQZypoADyoYI1VQjWlUFoHim/nDVbb4Ak4O2QpwY3zQGR/mKnc2+Wgf nx/p7FRjIrneIjprZnBKSt3N1XD1yRuOM6sloPndY54wgAMgzzMFCpdxtkCjI/yQ0Hgt YCurotz/0WP9wLJStAmMgpglv7HzLQuI+r9BZk7D6/buXHDFSBDGLycpBP4u0obgI2cv cO/cH4duuszMpCSWn9wFb8Y/8th5fm3NMm/9pfUgsnVcYN/2pfXIbIqMficu1KAX8Vzl zzfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3V/OZFOSp27RaGeJX44e0xYd70e/rF2ExFkYP6lQaZc=; b=VB2S+uTMshUNhbW7WeJ5m3pR2e033vXkI9qYT/q5dfyfJPRGHCLYt1CTcFLYn+m7dT T4WhRHPfCPeiZl8/GkWyrMDwLG0FKCtKSKeKsS26wu+XNfvQ67n1QH2ORaywF/w77wVj uKs8gsMZ2JvZ+pyk2WhWjoz+5TDzu71DRisel+/IjmRdXrGojvHisqaN57PY27ik+Sgw LFmh3J/PooM/o5WdJ7ZxuZa9o1OtKQki5Wf+r69i5/76o8LHOUepuSGj7mWAGJ4epBjp MDyYrTyi7fSceAO89q5R0UToGcOEW+xCVoehsQZqQCmjog23PIL9iOveUv40dX4CXjyU gBAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Suql3P1sTbU7iaURrE/f29mbYiNmOcDIPuSInbci9ZKhDkUF0 QwX0lqIgufnzupmnF9oQi/IdUSViMXT9/0GlTNibALoeZdC7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBLBzepISiscBlyOb2y+ooEns/ZkWmfkTLfhg5RFLmVkzZRZU01OzXzaezdCAWrZE5q1pf6NQ9wMHwrcuuz8U= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:54d:: with SMTP id 74mr5572997ljf.44.1612037217071; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:06:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Tyler Adams Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 22:06:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b036ec05ba23a9d0" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Favorite unix design principles? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000b036ec05ba23a9d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Really? Except for one particularly incompetent team, I cannot recall working with nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity for performance. Tyler On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > Tyler Adams writes: > > > > For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes: > > - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into the > > mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture and the > > "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall" style, has led to > a > > momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements. > > - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less and > > less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) > optimization > > as much. > > It's interesting in more than one way. > > The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure than I find > acceptable. > > As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse. I > haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more premature > optimization that didn't optimize anything. > > My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable products > with poor performance being delivered more quickly. I'm just kind of weird > in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly. Especially since > much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep people > buying, not to provide things that are actually useful. > --000000000000b036ec05ba23a9d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Really? Except for one particularly incompetent team,= I cannot recall working with nor reviewing code that sacrificed clarity = for performance.

=C2=A0Tyler


On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:51 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
Tyler Adams writes:
>
> For sure, I've seen at least two interesting changes:
> - market forces have pushed fast iteration and fast prototyping into t= he
> mainstream in the form of Silicon valley "fail fast" culture= and the
> "agile" culture. This, over the disastrous "waterfall&q= uot; style, has led to a
> momentous improvement in overall productivity improvements.
> - As coders get pulled away from the machine and performance is less a= nd
> less in coders hands, engineers aren't sucked into (premature) opt= imization
> as much.

It's interesting in more than one way.

The "fail fast" culture seems to result in a lot more failure tha= n I find
acceptable.

As performance is less in coders hands, performance is getting worse.=C2=A0= I
haven't seen less premature optimization, I've just seen more prema= ture
optimization that didn't optimize anything.

My take is that the above changes have resulted in less reliable products with poor performance being delivered more quickly.=C2=A0 I'm just kind= of weird
in that I'd prefer better products delivered more slowly.=C2=A0 Especia= lly since
much of what counts as a product these days is just churn to keep people buying, not to provide things that are actually useful.
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