From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29587 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2021 23:31:58 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Apr 2021 23:31:58 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 68BD29CA79; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:31:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9D39CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:30:52 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="MMTnh4Mb"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 56D029CA5B; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:30:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-f180.google.com (mail-yb1-f180.google.com [209.85.219.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 849D89C883 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 09:30:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-f180.google.com with SMTP id o198so4578437yba.2 for ; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 16:30:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PNnNPoZJxeKe0YFQnmF07h4I+ngr5JfATqHNY2ECWQM=; b=MMTnh4MbukxvYW2UCsHIOvh1J5Qgz5q7KfoaEwnRlqQyL5gdFFpSQwtUxUqS0W54mv AxRXtDXpuOF3NjuQBhhiQfU64JgQous5LPxDP7x9lAfZaTSsQT8dB8jxmhQM0dFvX77q sveFSPP83Tol/K62Yvlp6a9wA1qaJ4QJP4tWD+dOfFFs9QGTQ7Qo523Boo24DA7O8E2q VtQXbrksR3yk64Y082+7lkB9fxJk6k0ek+kOVD2T/xtrdQTbo4TeCLdZ7/KLDrLRTO5Q fgJMNZUKvB5t3BlKkpCrh7dUAtQdZHU8000kmba1aFKGMyliHZ8G0uZ29zT+mIc+XFvv +B+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PNnNPoZJxeKe0YFQnmF07h4I+ngr5JfATqHNY2ECWQM=; b=Hi4+VnI6Zyu9cqP1qAuRstWkFHM0ZeFlwGTkdwSQ4nkxViovnY5aBMhP3w0VB5Ro/e a77FruzoYKV+Z6UHWp12Y2oZK9YkcShGPc3dkiCbs5/BMlQlySx5Yxi44GS2VeCc3vXc MbOLJT2Rd7aLfjEzxfFEdcS75rHopXgKLsA3i5rmFPY3R+ZMhV+vUUh+vjNoDYGklUsW Rfwyd6XsUE2UsvwqCa3Wl7HzsBXfvHVbOZHl0M6NckHa1NIcM52D3GY8VZx5qjSyf1Ng zdhaIXbkiiT00MnUPnS2w9Netwpazb5w+wORlEAeKkvKvw7Cubq94wvmbix39QgyOdjG Wjgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532qLAWMQrvVlnljdRfyXXpkU7yWr/dWJMrKbnYaIQvAO8KDnzyT x+2I5HizFVsx0os6m4wlwieDXQZV3PRpFrCAzHmOQZCXXaY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyDionNjrkPqXsK38EnKcD+/75cwdVtS61MKOT1iWfycZyKW5AwU0ij3XGp/IPMrmPLh2jdLgrVO+Ms1/1hiv0= X-Received: by 2002:a25:9c83:: with SMTP id y3mr15730907ybo.76.1617579046553; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210401145025.GA1202@naleco.com> <20210404052939.xivuinlcugqb5zde@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20210404052939.xivuinlcugqb5zde@localhost.localdomain> From: "A. P. Garcia" Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 19:30:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000774a9205bf2df8d1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] How to Kill a Technical Conference (was: Zombified SCO comes back from the dead, brings trial back to life against IBM) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000774a9205bf2df8d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> Misremembered the year. That conference was October 2000. I just >> found the bookbag I got as swag from it. > I think you're remembering the Atlanta Linux Showcase. I was at the same event. I also think I know exactly the person you're talking about: Charles Hannum, with whom I had a similar experience on a different topic. ALS '99 was a fun conference. I didn't attend in 2000. I'm going to stick my neck out just a little bit and say that my experience with him was quite different. We talked a little about the differences between Linux and BSD, both userland and kernel space, and the history of NetBSD, including an unfortunate occurrence with Bill Jolitz at a different conference. Charles was cordial with me. That same day, I went to the cafeteria area when I got hungry, and I saw what looked like two kids sitting around a laptop working intently on something. I was curious, so I asked them what they were hacking on. It turned out to be Miguel de Icaza, now a Distinguished Engineer at Microsoft, and Nat Friedman, who I believe is now CTO of GitHub (also owned by Microsoft). They sort of blew me off, but to be fair, they were working on a presentation they were about to deliver. On Sun, Apr 4, 2021, 1:31 AM G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > At 2021-04-03T19:50:51-0700, Adam Thornton wrote: > > > But back to the S/390 port--I went to a Linux conference in Atlanta > > > in the late 90s ('99, I think) to speak about Linux on S390/Z, and I > > > actually went by the NetBSD booth to say, "hey, I can maybe hook you > > > guys up with a development virtual machine," and what I got was an > > > earful about "your so-called portability" from someone who was > > > clearly much more invested in hating Linux than in, you know, > > > saying, "wow, OK, I realize you're not offering me cycles on a > > > super-awesome machine, but, yeah, it's not nothing, cool, here's who > > > you should talk to if you're interested in getting a port going." > > > > > > So I don't think you can lay all the blame on BSD inaction on Linux, > > > is all I'm saying. By '99, I think it was, maybe if NetBSD, which > > > already had its reputation for spectacular portability, hadn't > > > staffed its booth with a jackass still trying to fight the Unix > > > Wars, that story might have turned out differently. > > > > Misremembered the year. That conference was October 2000. I just > > found the bookbag I got as swag from it. > > I think you're remembering the Atlanta Linux Showcase. I was at the > same event. I also think I know exactly the person you're talking > about: Charles Hannum, with whom I had a similar experience on a > different topic. > > Instead of insisting that I was stupid and wrong for using Linux instead > of (NetBSD) in his view, I was stupid and wrong for using software > licensed under the GNU GPL instead of the "BSD" license (which variant > of the latter is not, all these years later, a matter I recall coming > up). I mention this so that Mr. Hannum's reputation on this list risks > no blackening among those who share his hostility to copyleft. ;-) > > ALS was a terrific experience and, for me, lived up to the praise I had > heard about it as a venue for getting engineers talking to each other. > Regrettably enough, the conference was acquired by a firm. It was held > one final time the next year in Atlanta, officially rebranded the > "Annual Linux Showcase", and, as I recall, permanently mothballed > thereafter, with the dot-com bubble-burst as either a direct reason or > as an excuse. > > I have seen other technical conferences over the years steadily morph > from a technical/engineering focus to an orientation around sales and > "strategy", or more bluntly--propaganda. The emphasis is no longer on > technological improvement and evaluation (i.e., how to achieve and > measure "solutions"), but on promotion, rationalization, and boosterism. > > I suppose that one of the reasons this happens is that good conferences > grow, and companies sending delegations find themselves with growing > expense bills for doing so. Engineers are a cost center. When they > come back from the event, they will almost never have anything to "show > for it". At best they'll be excited about something they can > "integrate" or some new idea they can realize after months of > development time. In other words, you _might_ have a competitive > advantage after spending _even more_ money. > > By contrast, sales people can bring you orders you can book the day they > get back, or even before the conference is over, thanks to the magic > power of accrual accounting, a practice which persists even after the > glorious examples of Enron and other gigantic bankruptcies of the 2000s. > > That's the demand side. On the supply side, conferences have > governance; it takes people to solicit papers, book speakers, and put > talks on the schedule and into proceedings. Conference sponsorship is a > neat way of closing the gap between demand and supply on the back end; > be a "gold" or "platinum" level sponsor and obtain influence, likely > through direct seating of representatives on the committees that perform > the foregoing organizational roles. Note the entrenchment and > persistence of precious metals as metaphors for status; we would not > name the tiers after the decreasing scale of photolithographic > processes, for example. Historically, it's been a lot easier to > motivate a guy with a checkbook in the C suite who drives a Lamborghini > Gallardo with the word "platinum" than "5 nm". > > I'm too young to know--did USENIX follow the trajectory of reorienting > its focus from engineering and research to sales? Why does it no longer > occupy the premier place it once did? > > Regards, > Branden > --000000000000774a9205bf2df8d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> Misremembered the year.=C2=A0 = That conference was October 2000.=C2=A0 I just
>&= gt; found the bookbag I got as swag from it.

> I think you're remembering the Atlanta Linux = Showcase.=C2=A0 I was at the
same event.=C2=A0 I als= o think I know exactly the person you're talking
about: Charles Hannum, with whom I had a similar experience on a
different topic.

ALS '99 was a fun conference. I didn't attend in 2000. I'= ;m going to stick my neck out just a little bit and say that my experience = with him was quite different. We talked a little about the differences betw= een Linux and BSD, both userland and kernel space, and the history of NetBS= D, including an unfortunate occurrence with Bill Jolitz at a different conf= erence. Charles was cordial with me.

That same day, I went to the cafeteria area when I got hungry,= and I saw what looked like two kids sitting around a laptop working intent= ly on something. I was curious, so I asked them what they were hacking on. = It turned out to be Miguel de Icaza, now a Distinguished Engineer at Micros= oft, and Nat Friedman, who I believe is now CTO of GitHub (also owned by Mi= crosoft). They sort of blew me off, but to be fair, they were working on a = presentation they were about to deliver.

On Sun, Apr 4, 2021, 1:31 AM = G. Branden Robinson <g.b= randen.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
At 2021-04-03T19:50:51-0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> > But back to the S/390 port--I went to a Linux conference in Atlan= ta
> > in the late 90s ('99, I think) to speak about Linux on S390/Z= , and I
> > actually went by the NetBSD booth to say, "hey, I can maybe = hook you
> > guys up with a development virtual machine," and what I got = was an
> > earful about "your so-called portability" from someone = who was
> > clearly much more invested in hating Linux than in, you know,
> > saying, "wow, OK, I realize you're not offering me cycle= s on a
> > super-awesome machine, but, yeah, it's not nothing, cool, her= e's who
> > you should talk to if you're interested in getting a port goi= ng."
> >
> > So I don't think you can lay all the blame on BSD inaction on= Linux,
> > is all I'm saying.=C2=A0 By '99, I think it was, maybe if= NetBSD, which
> > already had its reputation for spectacular portability, hadn'= t
> > staffed its booth with a jackass still trying to fight the Unix > > Wars, that story might have turned out differently.
>
> Misremembered the year.=C2=A0 That conference was October 2000.=C2=A0 = I just
> found the bookbag I got as swag from it.

I think you're remembering the Atlanta Linux Showcase.=C2=A0 I was at t= he
same event.=C2=A0 I also think I know exactly the person you're talking=
about: Charles Hannum, with whom I had a similar experience on a
different topic.

Instead of insisting that I was stupid and wrong for using Linux instead of (NetBSD) in his view, I was stupid and wrong for using software
licensed under the GNU GPL instead of the "BSD" license (which va= riant
of the latter is not, all these years later, a matter I recall coming
up).=C2=A0 I mention this so that Mr. Hannum's reputation on this list = risks
no blackening among those who share his hostility to copyleft.=C2=A0 ;-)
ALS was a terrific experience and, for me, lived up to the praise I had
heard about it as a venue for getting engineers talking to each other.
Regrettably enough, the conference was acquired by a firm.=C2=A0 It was hel= d
one final time the next year in Atlanta, officially rebranded the
"Annual Linux Showcase", and, as I recall, permanently mothballed=
thereafter, with the dot-com bubble-burst as either a direct reason or
as an excuse.

I have seen other technical conferences over the years steadily morph
from a technical/engineering focus to an orientation around sales and
"strategy", or more bluntly--propaganda.=C2=A0 The emphasis is no= longer on
technological improvement and evaluation (i.e., how to achieve and
measure "solutions"), but on promotion, rationalization, and boos= terism.

I suppose that one of the reasons this happens is that good conferences
grow, and companies sending delegations find themselves with growing
expense bills for doing so.=C2=A0 Engineers are a cost center.=C2=A0 When t= hey
come back from the event, they will almost never have anything to "sho= w
for it".=C2=A0 At best they'll be excited about something they can=
"integrate" or some new idea they can realize after months of
development time.=C2=A0 In other words, you _might_ have a competitive
advantage after spending _even more_ money.

By contrast, sales people can bring you orders you can book the day they get back, or even before the conference is over, thanks to the magic
power of accrual accounting, a practice which persists even after the
glorious examples of Enron and other gigantic bankruptcies of the 2000s.
That's the demand side.=C2=A0 On the supply side, conferences have
governance; it takes people to solicit papers, book speakers, and put
talks on the schedule and into proceedings.=C2=A0 Conference sponsorship is= a
neat way of closing the gap between demand and supply on the back end;
be a "gold" or "platinum" level sponsor and obtain infl= uence, likely
through direct seating of representatives on the committees that perform the foregoing organizational roles.=C2=A0 Note the entrenchment and
persistence of precious metals as metaphors for status; we would not
name the tiers after the decreasing scale of photolithographic
processes, for example.=C2=A0 Historically, it's been a lot easier to motivate a guy with a checkbook in the C suite who drives a Lamborghini
Gallardo with the word "platinum" than "5 nm".

I'm too young to know--did USENIX follow the trajectory of reorienting<= br> its focus from engineering and research to sales?=C2=A0 Why does it no long= er
occupy the premier place it once did?

Regards,
Branden
--000000000000774a9205bf2df8d1--