From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 021115cc for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 17:02:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3BE23A1C5D; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:02:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA222A1F31; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:01:30 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="uB2bCEPJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 28CBCA1C5C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:01:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f50.google.com (mail-lf1-f50.google.com [209.85.167.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45C30A1C50 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 03:01:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f50.google.com with SMTP id y14so8475628lfg.13 for ; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 09:01:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZIR3UK0/2D3+qywWYGs2sPzD6+BJhWei++QqDom8qdo=; b=uB2bCEPJ5tU/r/F/fxOKAX1Wj4xnyqoknJ9AdHUr6utJk0HdsD2GZToP0XKyQaWLGZ UHFW5U5CbET8FRBZKOPGnZHPMLjyuD4j60EAcPixAeFNicKAYWR5bR+sGndNegOsZFrG ZqMaDBsdkBN+Y0VbusMwvtJsMdSe4+miutBHfWG9SmAr5SvZs5C076D+JkPm3jA/pQyY GCsTQlQLcYODp0kSckqciNqUefz0jkkQuj6NcFKGXQDzDd5+3mbGgc2kH6LLQ+gktNvB PK9OYXL0RNNWBMmjnD05Vywtw38yPWS3BanJi/aTsH703Hgqv92I0i9ru7haK7BPIUul 2vrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZIR3UK0/2D3+qywWYGs2sPzD6+BJhWei++QqDom8qdo=; b=MLdGFMoN9RkmMYzi8UvWXEvM0AHhnDc83CfWylxqWPXmIO9/eSRR45GgnHbZRaKxFf 8jNXzaERM1JOFwd45v716FP8Cl1zHmSL77n43Zs3oH8KdA8eq06vCcTPje0ZhKncyhDV I0oLznb7QDWQde+03km1VZ7P+MJJh4Ex+/ybU/O/hbni+kp2bJ4CiaXWWxmGftE6WOJd Jcn11lVIjXkwuPJXvUqIfvm5bKD0PiefrItaGhRVVIwj1+osPxvvSGZxcV/8lOBesa/G MY6bjxCwemPndQoXSI4KtuA39m5YjxsMuKnTYDoduNTxZav2LGwnAxoQkrEIWpFNuK3Y 49og== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZk2NJNO3W+6mLRA86uyYGk69pXrQWtdFv7KLRRyg2Yx9lP7eEa oBVTXHU86nJ1fLG3C/x3cBSZprUkFmcbZoYxOGU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UIOKZ9CC4YX6pEciAWq7aKjA3fng2yGIaKke+24DWsSJfLDvrD7OiaKFdV3+A+WaD+MHyVhvCHYUqLNDc5ELY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5601:: with SMTP id k1mr23950515lfb.99.1546707682634; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 09:01:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201901050226.x052QigU089781@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <22BA2F17-310F-4396-A35A-23E2D1130018@ronnatalie.com> <20190105153133.GA24497@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190105153133.GA24497@mcvoy.com> From: "A. P. Garcia" Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 12:01:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000feb1ec057eb8f18d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Isaacson v Unix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000feb1ec057eb8f18d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 10:39 AM Larry McVoy +1. RMS always talked big but the real work was done by other people. > GCC was Tiemann at Sun and then at Cygnus, groff was James Clark, > etc. I think RMS hacked on emacs but not much else. > I'm going to refrain from either praising or disparaging the man. I think the book Hackers by Steven Levy does a good job of describing him and how the idea for the GNU project came about. I'm going to paraphrase what I remember from it, but it's been a long time since I read it. If I recall correctly, stallman graduated summa cum laude with a physics degree from Harvard. He spent many of his undergrad days and nights working at the MIT AI lab. Among his character defects, I've never heard anyone accuse him of being a dumb guy. Awkward, yes, strange, perhaps, but not dumb. At the AI lab he found a place where he fit in. The systems ran ITS, an MIT homegrown operating system. It was an open environment where people debated technical issues over Chinese take-out, an intellectual society in which Stallman felt at home as a rightful citizen. The camaraderie he knew there dissolved as its members struck out to become entrepreneurs. My memory is fuzzy here, but I believe his main nemesis was Symbolics, marketers of a proprietary version of MIT's CADR Lisp machine and operating system. As they released system updates, Stallman would would reverse engineer the changes and add the new features to the MIT system. Around the same time, ITS was being replaced on the computers by proprietary operating systems. Stallman began running into roadblocks, bugs in the OS where the code was not available to fix. To access the code he would have to sign an NDA, which he refused to do. In short, his little utopia collapsed. The lab as he knew it was gone. He wondered to himself whether he could rebuild it somehow, and this was the inception of the GNU project. He chose to re-implement Unix, not because he considered it an ideal operating system but because he considered it adequate. (I am among those on this list who would beg to differ.) He has said many times that he does not agree with the Unix philosophy, but I don't know specifically what he means by this. Building an operating system in and of itself was not so much his goal as building the friendships and community surrounding it. > On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 09:35:53PM -0500, Ronald Natalie wrote: > > Yep, it???s pretty superficial when it comes to looking at where we are > today. > > Further, the puppy love over RMS is entirely unjustified. He was in > the right place with a rant about the industry but he???s oft unduly > credited by a lot of the early GNU hangers on like Len Tower who made the > project a success in spite > > of RMS. > > > > If anybody truly knew RMS they???d not tolerate any of this. He???s > the most odiferous, objectionable, sexist, pedophile I have ever met > (though I???ve not met the President yet). > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm > --000000000000feb1ec057eb8f18d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 10:39 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com wrote:
+1.=C2= =A0 RMS always talked big but the real work was done by other people.
GCC was Tiemann at Sun and then at Cygnus, groff was James Clark,
etc.=C2=A0 I think RMS hacked on emacs but not much else.
<= /div>

I'm going to r= efrain from either praising or disparaging the man. I think the book Hacker= s by Steven Levy does a good job of describing him and how the idea for the= GNU project came about. I'm going to paraphrase what I remember from i= t, but it's been a long time since I read it.
If I recall correctly, stallman graduated summa c= um laude with a physics degree from Harvard. He spent many of his undergrad= days and nights working at the MIT AI lab. Among his character defects, I&= #39;ve never heard anyone accuse him of being a dumb guy. Awkward, yes, str= ange, perhaps, but not dumb.

At the AI lab he found a place where he fit in. The systems ran ITS, a= n MIT homegrown operating system. It was an open environment where people d= ebated technical issues over Chinese take-out, an intellectual society in w= hich Stallman felt at home as a rightful citizen.
The camaraderie he knew there dissolved as its me= mbers struck out to become entrepreneurs. My memory is fuzzy here, but I be= lieve his main nemesis was Symbolics, marketers of a proprietary version of= MIT's CADR Lisp machine and operating system. As they released system = updates, Stallman would would reverse engineer the changes and add the new = features to the MIT system.

Around the same time, ITS was being replaced on the computers by propri= etary operating systems. Stallman began running into roadblocks, bugs in th= e OS where the code was not available to fix. To access the code he would h= ave to sign an NDA, which he refused to do.

In short, his little utopia collapsed. The lab as he kn= ew it was gone. He wondered to himself whether he could rebuild it somehow,= and this was the inception of the GNU project. He chose to re-implement Un= ix, not because he considered it an ideal operating system but because he c= onsidered it adequate. (I am among those on this list who would beg to diff= er.) He has said many times that he does not agree with the Unix philosophy= , but I don't know specifically what he means by this.=C2=A0

Building an operating system in an= d of itself was not so much his goal as building the friendships and commun= ity surrounding it.


=

On Fri, Jan 04, 2019 at 09:35:53PM -0500, Ronald Natalie wrote:
> Yep, it???s pretty superficial when it comes to looking at where we ar= e today.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> Further, the puppy love over RMS is entirely unjustified.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= He was in the right place with a rant about the industry but he???s oft und= uly credited by a lot of the early GNU hangers on like Len Tower who made t= he project a success in spite
> of RMS.
>
> If anybody truly knew RMS they???d not tolerate any of this.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0He???s the most odiferous, objectionable, sexist, pedophile I have ever = met (though I???ve not met the President yet).

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 l= m at mcvoy.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
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