From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13767 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2021 20:24:50 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jul 2021 20:24:50 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C32C89C81A; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:24:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D629C9C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:24:25 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="G8DwItdF"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 638109C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:24:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f48.google.com (mail-ot1-f48.google.com [209.85.210.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C848E9C7F0 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:24:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f48.google.com with SMTP id s2-20020a0568301e02b02904ce2c1a843eso624286otr.13 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rUoGE5dUO4ZkW+2f12H3+qrzvFPOIilTFuFGRed8J3Q=; b=G8DwItdFcYX2eol8zyFX54dI5pWDyR/L7swjrYE+63RsAgORt6pMAXpuDHJ3RsP+ws unUv9CGz65Vp5lHe0Vfm49ABnpzkIVlN215s0wsdoiFgRptAxw6O1m4jj8u0tBe9N62J 2tAcDuzS8pIPuZHhMtiB+PBOOBm4UV0NBEgZ8MLJZ+S5RrMcul7KTmPkkRgvB9JPXi75 sRk+KfdTxLhb3hqbnSANXWpQtbJCXfIVEjhIrPpnBaL5JB33RX5gxI0ZgOJEp1OxiRdh TmBSzi06hCq364BScfcKbcgQvbygOdW9JtwhUWd3TpjNdP2J0yldzd2M7wiVr0WFIV7k B3DQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rUoGE5dUO4ZkW+2f12H3+qrzvFPOIilTFuFGRed8J3Q=; b=qhAXrbi2dukl2l07J4b9FjnGDL8b4ZonlRBETneyztucKyjAcbhEtefSXhpfJFu1J0 r6UIAJwOx8q62sn9cMe3boYyohjDZbfHW0Wb882U+WfGGFMsXfbo6ocHyWvUtElkUqWu tWI4RfYW/CzJ0H6OsawJ9RSainSRZVIhV5l4oZT3xNhgVG8JCcaBhev/lOxR3ZArpEqm LWOZPJwssWGZp957fUGRB5R5rBcFPIqgNlKTsWAcAv2ctlN9pP40m2tBszju+OMSklJa KHqgEhtHfTZwK8099Y36opAA2mYpe/Tr0JMa80QOcLsAtpYxX63hqYoUduVs8vyILuc6 M7vQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318fJdHB+heQVY7qkonU4UYUXaseRH5Z41RmhXEEJq9EfREVAWc 9qG7ojXTvPYq2t/gorsKedeoVUfLdFWotXyaL8Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxnT0Qb2Nxx+founVygS/riTCEqARqbbPEFIe3p/KEMiRu2/ofo1wEj9RIcxl5+SMn8E4RWmq1jpE0njhqfbUI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:545:: with SMTP id l5mr9295581otb.270.1626467063068; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:24:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <213a4c11-3ab2-4b4a-8d6b-b52105a19711@localhost> <5777F7E6-062B-4C5A-9C98-36FFE6AC3414@stdio.com> <20210716135639.GI12733@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Salz Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:24:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000887a6c05c7435f9d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Bakul Shah Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000887a6c05c7435f9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone remember the old mtXinu calendar with fake ads?I only remember one page, "oh no Spot(?) spilled the mbufs, Dad's favorite cereal." On Fri, Jul 16, 2021, 4:19 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Bowling > wrote: > >> Yup was just going to say this is standard in the modern BSD network >> drivers, looks like Clem says it's older. > > Absolutely -- I believe it was Rob's undergrad project at Brown that he > brought to BBN. > > The first use, if I saw, was the 'portable IP/TCP' stack BBN did for > HP/3000 and a couple of other systems. That code seems to have been lost= . > I have asked about it on the Internet history mailing list. I had a copy > of it one time, but sadly I don't think I still do. IIRC The original > PDP-11 IP implementation which ran on a couple of dedicated systems, > whose names/function I frankly do not remember) was also based on a versi= on > of this code. I think it ran something like RT-11 or DOS-11 and then > started the IP code -- basically RTR style today. Later it morphed into > Rob's Vax BSD 4.1 specific stack, which we ran at UCB on a couple of th= e > systems using 3M Xerox board. This latest until 4.1A and Joy's rewrite a= nd > I want to say we switched in Interlan 10M boards then. We have a couple = of > the 3Com boards, but because of the lack of buffering, they were a bear t= o > use and stopped as soon as we got the Interlan one. > > > Anyway, all of these IP/TCP stacks used Rob's mbuf code. Which was a > blessing and a curse. By writing his own, he avoids huge > changes/integration into the memory system, but it also helped to make BS= D > such a mess under the covers because there were so many private memory > managers between the network, the I/O systems etc... As discussed > previously on the TUHS list, the one thing Risner really did well had a > uniform memory design. Later BSD's moved to Mach and tried to clean thi= s > up a little, but the network code was by then so screwed into Rob's mbuf > scheme, it stayed around a long time. Werner -- what is the state of thi= s > these days in FreeBSD is it still there? > > > > >> There are recent optimizations to help the CPU with prefetch, and some >> ideas around vectors of mbufs. What's remarkable is the mbuf design >> scales to >> 200gbps in practice, it must feel great to design something like that so >> long ago :) >> > Well, ask Rob :-) I've lost track of him since Stellar, and I think he I > heard he left high tech but frankly don't know. > > Clem > =E1=90=A7 > --000000000000887a6c05c7435f9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone remember the old mtXinu calendar with fake ads?I o= nly remember one page, "oh no Spot(?) spilled the mbufs, Dad's fav= orite cereal."

On Fri, Jul 16, 2021, 4:19 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:


On Fri, Jul 1= 6, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com>= wrote:
Yup was = just going to say this is standard in the modern BSD network
drivers, looks like Clem says it's older.=C2=A0
Abs= olutely -- I believe it was Rob's undergrad=C2=A0project at Brown that = he brought to BBN.

The first use, if I saw,=C2=A0was t= he 'portable IP/TCP' stack=C2=A0 BBN did for HP/3000 and a couple o= f other systems.=C2=A0 That code seems to have been lost.=C2=A0 I have aske= d about it on the Internet history mailing list.=C2=A0 I had a copy of it o= ne time, but sadly I don't think I still do.=C2=A0 IIRC The original PD= P-11 IP implementation which ran on a couple of dedicated systems, whose=C2= =A0names/function I frankly do not remember) was also based on a version of= this code.=C2=A0 I think it ran something like RT-11 or DOS-11 and then st= arted the IP code -- basically RTR style today.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Later it morphe= d into Rob's Vax BSD=C2=A0 4.1 specific stack,=C2=A0 which we ran at UC= B on a couple of the systems using 3M Xerox board.=C2=A0 This latest=C2=A0u= ntil 4.1A and Joy's rewrite and I want to say we switched in Interlan 1= 0M boards then.=C2=A0 We have a couple of the=C2=A03Com boards,=C2=A0but be= cause of the=C2=A0lack of buffering, they were a bear to use and stopped as= soon as=C2=A0we got the=C2=A0Interlan one.=C2=A0


=
Anyway, all of these IP/TCP stacks used Rob's mbuf code.=C2=A0= Which was a blessing and a curse.=C2=A0 By writing his own, he avoids huge= changes/integration into the memory system, but it also helped to make BSD= such a mess under the covers because there were so many private memory man= agers between the=C2=A0network,=C2=A0the I/O systems etc...=C2=A0 As discus= sed previously on the TUHS list, the one thing Risner really did well had a= uniform memory design.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Later BSD's moved to Mach and tried= to clean this up a little, but the network code was by then so screwed int= o Rob's mbuf scheme, it stayed around a long time.=C2=A0 Werner -- what= is the state of this these days in FreeBSD is it still there?


=C2=A0
There are recent optimizations to help the CPU with = prefetch, and some ideas around vectors of mbufs.=C2=A0 What'= ;s remarkable is the mbuf design scales to
200gbps in practice, it must feel great to design something like that <= /span>so long ago :)
Well, ask Rob :-)=C2= =A0 I've lost track of him since Stellar, and I think he I heard he= left high tech but frankly don't know.

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
--000000000000887a6c05c7435f9d--