From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 4e99fe73 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:59:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id EBCC49C058; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:59:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AA39C043; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:59:32 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="YD3ipkFr"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4CFEF947A2; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:58:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f52.google.com (mail-vs1-f52.google.com [209.85.217.52]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 126D6947A2 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:58:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f52.google.com with SMTP id f15so2406341vsq.6 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=jTe7XljazWBAawvkIdasyZbf9MjquexnXdy3aakwbbw=; b=YD3ipkFr01qfPDIIczpojid3IcrJKcjAnzD46o97dqCHelm1j5aIET5VSegttXExy4 owV89MugIHybtj8eYoHsZJwtOwa0/EiOTFU4dcQN86CsWo5E+5YztBH3jDrMWLtqEXwp qY/AbSpJ29MXWpB+mhACPvMRCFidKiZOxXEXU/KGnTF0s6bGwHQzsuLtClYFtWHy1JF2 r1d6xf3YikheqiMHMivvtZ55JhWMwb41w+TfwKTww/Htse81R7IGf6o/CAuQ24RcXGX8 Uy7ZUJxs6xEcu97ou/spGHP/6JoZeNuXcDf/M29S2WdMVRVZFwuEVFHzVaEB1vur8cFS 5kug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=jTe7XljazWBAawvkIdasyZbf9MjquexnXdy3aakwbbw=; b=RDF0U74OnZcOi+ruLJlFjAx4hRwzPvj+xf05NxJ2SwDg3dbcrek0eSuO+l739fENif iYasn5tzXC9W3yJHDYzzPpOEsbe0eb4s9mmq5EA4wqAk3STBocYRpNnU4RaWc8apVzVs ZgwS1EYpFAA6mE7Fsq37Up7Zph6/MWmO42gxrDFp4eOz93c8T47mv+b3FGoZPE9BrXHR wc67FfydUuCM18w7oRVmca1xqjTyVRNWFZ24edAqzhlBwI/J8ZGBN8G2mbtx7ylLBh1C y0XMzJETHfNOzlgEDTyHU5lBtPJKMoeptlP1SqJ8mj830BCldH4VlYyrUu+Q+zSmyVYb wPGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVN3CcrqXINxWHJrY73ccEYp4NRDclKi1GXiq/pCqrmuFYgRj5v Y8XiLa6vZfe10gR6CGKDgNtNhUIZLUNuvz43PLlXgObF X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz/lgRIcg1mnj5xADVM/c4WpEj2HrWiAxCkmmQKlGl8W3Kso1k53eaqHT0nS6A8MwYCEcmb1PUsXdRXzYrR9Fk= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1b01:: with SMTP id b1mr2275295vsb.127.1568735912761; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:58:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190913221345.GA16129@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190914020240.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190914024433.GA19193@minnie.tuhs.org> <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <201909170753.x8H7r8oT004491@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <201909170753.x8H7r8oT004491@freefriends.org> From: Christopher Browne Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 11:58:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: arnold@skeeve.com, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d39fd20592c1ca33" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d39fd20592c1ca33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 3:54 AM wrote: > It is like clockwork. > > Whenever I say something about Texinfo *as a markup language* for use > in *writing books*, the discussion inevitably degenerates into a hate > rant against Info and RMS's (failed) attempt to replace man pages. > Totally missing the point too. > Yeah, that is a pain in the neck. I had the other reaction to this... I have been managing my web presence via DocBook SGML for a goodly long time. It is, as mentioned upthread, pretty wordy what with all the verbose tagging. It would be worth something to be able to edit it in TeXinfo form, with the lesser amount of tagging required. (And I'd kinda like to get off of DocBook/SGML one of these days as the toolset is clearly mouldering away pretty badly.) So my reaction to your comments was to look into the usability of TeXinfo... I did a wee experiment yesterday, attempting to use docbook2x to get to something else. Alas, it seems to want to use xsltproc on the XML form, and the transformation to XML is apparently a separate pain in the neck. I thought I accomplished it, but the XSLT for generating TeXinfo throws up on it, so there must be more to the matter. I'll take a further poke at it later; thank you for offering a bit of inspiration on possible approaches to change. I know I can turn DocBook into s-expressions, and then write some transformation in CL after that; it would be nice if there were something already written. For sophisticated material, TeXinfo is of use, notwithstanding notions to make everything into brief man pages. Bashing RMS for wanting things from ITS (and probably Multics too) (as I see elsewhere in the thread) is unnecessarily unkind. A dogmatic attitude of "must be short man pages" shifts us to a different Procrustean bed that fails in a different set of cases. I for one was kinda hoping for Project Xanadu someday, to throw a different perspective on that. > --000000000000d39fd20592c1ca33 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 3:54 AM <arnold@skeeve.com&= gt; wrote:
It is like clockwork.
Whenever I say something about Texinfo *as a markup language* for use
in *writing books*, the discussion inevitably degenerates into a hate
rant against Info and RMS's (failed) attempt to replace man pages.
Totally missing the point too.

Yeah, that is a pain in the neck.

I had the other reaction to this...=

I have been managin= g my web presence via DocBook SGML for a goodly long time.=C2=A0 It is, as = mentioned upthread, pretty wordy what with all the verbose tagging.

It would be worth something= to be able to edit it in TeXinfo form, with the lesser amount of tagging r= equired.=C2=A0 (And I'd kinda like to get off of DocBook/SGML one of th= ese days as the toolset is clearly mouldering away pretty badly.)
=

So my reaction to your commen= ts was to look into the usability of TeXinfo...=C2=A0 I did a wee experimen= t yesterday, attempting to use docbook2x to get to something else.=C2=A0 Al= as, it seems to want to use xsltproc on the XML form, and the transformatio= n to XML is apparently a separate pain in the neck.=C2=A0 I thought I accom= plished it, but the XSLT for generating TeXinfo throws up on it, so there m= ust be more to the matter.=C2=A0 I'll take a further poke at it later; = thank you for offering a bit of inspiration on possible approaches to chang= e.

I know I can turn= DocBook into s-expressions, and then write some transformation in CL after= that; it would be nice if there were something already written.

For sophisticated material, TeXinf= o is of use, notwithstanding notions to make everything into brief man page= s.

Bashing RMS for wanting things fro= m ITS (and probably Multics too) (as I see elsewhere in the thread) is unne= cessarily unkind.=C2=A0 A dogmatic attitude of "must be short man page= s" shifts us to a different Procrustean bed that fails in a different = set of cases.=C2=A0 I for one was kinda hoping for Project Xanadu someday, = to throw a different perspective on that.
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