From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 17443 invoked from network); 24 Dec 2021 23:35:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 24 Dec 2021 23:35:35 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C572D9CEEE; Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:35:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4929CC01; Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:35:16 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="FDef697F"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 308859CC01; Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:35:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com (mail-ed1-f53.google.com [209.85.208.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09D059465C for ; Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:35:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id y22so37980809edq.2 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:35:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0oMQUuHYxjJwkwHBlxx/tDyyrsPc47F4timELpk+LP8=; b=FDef697Fy3Hd56BU+GCPr+eGeS6tPukhLvOr7qa91jLVyFGsOlWEM5fiobbeHuXsOx PMc/ZVRiKRF1eLbomkvpBR1p7dKbyvbCt0cZZk5weDdh/TkTJEXBPxKePgSyXqJSyYLn prQ0jh9yz6z7Q0VrUNAE7zhKzcwMsJ5uZiLkr2SFBX0C8CWDg8o1gUKbBieaN2fCs2l3 C599aJNGSj9V2Xq9T8GBoS78p9pJ5TD8BsLgxaIQwmXjDVcbvOcv1qDwGpKMtSFm6hdX gyu1no0YpcesHjGDGnDuon+Ux9V/ugXTYApdP38LMBRfMl1ktJ9YGP9PbMygb2w2PHei RC7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0oMQUuHYxjJwkwHBlxx/tDyyrsPc47F4timELpk+LP8=; b=NNkmbBiVLVK7UHhSQ1kW+NMK/MaSXN7LNYXtUeq9kn/+cLUTk3w5mhCtoZZrOPBPpQ dIbaOzUv+YExPxzi8lAgiR1/3g9XKAS+5HAx+Aj3DQgN5oNK2cvIhNUbqmVtzH/w3hE2 /Rrk8qN+Xa6ccfRGVX6wEDCVKhk1GfGPv7CiJsP/NP8VHTwUs6ecBg8t1mp0D7nVXIhJ 7sswkvFELt1LoSCyNG6nJ8/il/3trYMva9VYIm+mGV/W+is9WXJ4QzJJVVOlwR8Bnr9y Wo3R32DIWSWcBWnLrMkAN8w8AY3WtdAWBsqjYEDrUtXEi/APihBSl36Fo6GCYzusKm7E JsmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tlvKuLmqrhSIVLNMWZDfTXzhO6sxXB7STvvGECvc0lXrRMg8c /WciciUyg06KgZRCmn3ewovKFI4EJ/rNiXxdFLUigtK8+Gs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLZQMbAFDz4zk9umZxO6i78UGLV/Fgm5SSzVe0QkdkfVX3/vlAL4q153pD/WSO+3qpC9nhC30eTqPFgHstMJA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:d89:: with SMTP id go9mr6622260ejc.417.1640388910192; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 15:35:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Huff Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 14:34:57 -0900 Message-ID: To: Grant Taylor Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000491cd805d3ecce71" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ksh88 source code? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000491cd805d3ecce71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > My limited understanding is that the GPLed parts of the product must be made available. But I'm not aware that using GPLed parts means that /everything/ /else/ must also be made available. >From what I read, you are correct -it doesn't. At least that's what the FSF appears to say themselves: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLAndNonfreeOnSameMachine There's been some attempts over the years (eg Microsoft's "get the facts" campaign) to muddy the waters on that issue and paint the GNU license as acting "cancerous"; but I'm not aware of any legal precedents backing that up. Another part of the same page that you might find interesting (regarding distributing sources): https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DistributeWithSourceOnInternet Of course if someone is acting as an owner or employee of a company they'll want to consult their legal staff in addition to reading what the GNU have to say as well. /disclaimer; I do not work in IT, but have used Unix and Linux for 25 years now -make of that what you will On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 1:52 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > On 12/21/21 11:23 PM, jason-tuhs@shalott.net wrote: > > As an end user, you would not care. > > That tends to explain why I've not personally cared. > > > As a vendor or distributor, you would care. Anyone doing an OS or other > > software distribution (think the BSDs, of course; but also think Apple > > or Microsoft) needs to care. Anyone selling a hardware device with > > embedded software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think > > consumer devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care. GPL (or similar > > "virally" licensed) software carries legal implications for anyone > > selling or distributing products that contain such software; and this > > can be a motivation to use software with less-restrictive license terms. > > Okay. > > My limited understanding is that the GPLed parts of the product must be > made available. But I'm not aware that using GPLed parts means that > /everything/ /else/ must also be made available. > > Also, I believe /made/ /available/ means that it must be accessible or > provided when asked. Thus it does not mean that the GPLed code needs to > be shipped with the product. > > > I'm aware of a few random features that are in ksh93 but not other > > shells (random, trivial, example that I saw just today*: "printf > > %(FORMAT)T"). That said, my first impulse would have been to say no, > > there aren't any meaningful (technical) advantages to ksh over bash -- > > except that it seems there's still some amount of active development > > going on in ksh: > > The biggest motivation I had in a previous job was to make sure that my > account's shell was set to a shell that lived on the root file system. > > I could easily have that shell test to see if my preferred shell was > available and start or exec it. That way I could still log in if the > file system with my preferred shell was not mounted. As if I needed to > address the underlying issue that was preventing the desired shell from > being accessible. E.g. /usr/bin/bash wasn't available b/c /usr wasn't > automatically mounted at boot. > > > So I guess, for some people at least, there are indeed reasons to prefer > > it, including (according to users in those github issues) performance. > > At my last job I helped administer some systems that didn't have any > shells other than was was in the base OS installation. (We won't talk > about why.) > > > On the licensing front, the GPL is an issue for bash; but zsh is > > available as a more modern, fully-featured shell that avoids any GPL > > issues. This is why Apple switched the default shell in OSX from bash > > to zsh: they wanted to avoid the GPLv3. Previously, they had been > > shipping the last GPLv2 version of bash, which was from 2006. According > > to this blog, they've been avoiding any GPLv3 code and actively working > > to remove even GPLv2 code in OSX for quite a while: > > That makes sense. > > > * bash seems to recognize %(FORMAT)T, but only takes epoch seconds as an > > argument. ksh93 takes anything vaguely date-like. zsh and pdksh don't > > recognize it at all. > > Interesting. > > Thank you for the informative reply Jason. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > --000000000000491cd805d3ecce71 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> My limited understanding is that the GPLed parts of the product must be made available.=C2=A0 But I'm not aware that using GPLed parts means th= at
/everything/ /else/ must also be made available.

<= div>From what I read, you are correct -it doesn't. At least that's = what the FSF appears to say themselves: https://www.gnu.org/licens= es/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLAndNonfreeOnSameMachine
There's bee= n some attempts over the years (eg Microsoft's "get the facts"= ; campaign) to muddy the waters on that issue and paint the GNU license as = acting "cancerous"; but I'm not aware of any legal precedents= backing that up.

Another part of the same page th= at you might find interesting (regarding distributing sources):
<= div>https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DistributeWit= hSourceOnInternet

Of course if someone is acti= ng as an owner or employee of a company they'll want to consult their l= egal staff in addition to reading what the GNU have to say as well.

/disclaimer; I do not work in IT, but have used Unix= and Linux for 25 years now -make of that what you will

=
On Fri, De= c 24, 2021 at 1:52 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
On 12/21/21 11:23 PM, jason-tuhs@shalott.net wrote: > As an end user, you would not care.

That tends to explain why I've not personally cared.

> As a vendor or distributor, you would care.=C2=A0 Anyone doing an OS o= r other
> software distribution (think the BSDs, of course; but also think Apple=
> or Microsoft) needs to care.=C2=A0 Anyone selling a hardware device wi= th
> embedded software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think > consumer devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care.=C2=A0 GPL (or similar =
> "virally" licensed) software carries legal implications for = anyone
> selling or distributing products that contain such software; and this =
> can be a motivation to use software with less-restrictive license term= s.

Okay.

My limited understanding is that the GPLed parts of the product must be made available.=C2=A0 But I'm not aware that using GPLed parts means th= at
/everything/ /else/ must also be made available.

Also, I believe /made/ /available/ means that it must be accessible or
provided when asked.=C2=A0 Thus it does not mean that the GPLed code needs = to
be shipped with the product.

> I'm aware of a few random features that are in ksh93 but not other=
> shells (random, trivial, example that I saw just today*: "printf =
> %(FORMAT)T"). That said, my first impulse would have been to say = no,
> there aren't any meaningful (technical) advantages to ksh over bas= h --
> except that it seems there's still some amount of active developme= nt
> going on in ksh:

The biggest motivation I had in a previous job was to make sure that my account's shell was set to a shell that lived on the root file system.<= br>
I could easily have that shell test to see if my preferred shell was
available and start or exec it.=C2=A0 That way I could still log in if the =
file system with my preferred shell was not mounted.=C2=A0 As if I needed t= o
address the underlying issue that was preventing the desired shell from being accessible.=C2=A0 E.g. /usr/bin/bash wasn't available b/c /usr wa= sn't
automatically mounted at boot.

> So I guess, for some people at least, there are indeed reasons to pref= er
> it, including (according to users in those github issues) performance.=

At my last job I helped administer some systems that didn't have any shells other than was was in the base OS installation.=C2=A0 (We won't = talk
about why.)

> On the licensing front, the GPL is an issue for bash; but zsh is
> available as a more modern, fully-featured shell that avoids any GPL <= br> > issues.=C2=A0 This is why Apple switched the default shell in OSX from= bash
> to zsh: they wanted to avoid the GPLv3.=C2=A0 Previously, they had bee= n
> shipping the last GPLv2 version of bash, which was from 2006.=C2=A0 Ac= cording
> to this blog, they've been avoiding any GPLv3 code and actively wo= rking
> to remove even GPLv2 code in OSX for quite a while:

That makes sense.

> * bash seems to recognize %(FORMAT)T, but only takes epoch seconds as = an
> argument.=C2=A0 ksh93 takes anything vaguely date-like.=C2=A0 zsh and = pdksh don't
> recognize it at all.

Interesting.

Thank you for the informative reply Jason.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

--000000000000491cd805d3ecce71--