From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1104 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2020 17:22:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Aug 2020 17:22:20 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AD3739CB46; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 03:22:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606D59C9E3; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 03:21:30 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=google.com header.i=@google.com header.b="ef7HRLR/"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 150159C9E3; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 03:21:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f48.google.com (mail-io1-f48.google.com [209.85.166.48]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C3D593DFC for ; Sun, 2 Aug 2020 03:21:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f48.google.com with SMTP id j8so22351254ioe.9 for ; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 10:21:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UMvy89l25MZaOeZM9vz99egACg8cIICqlK7Xcvrcv1g=; b=ef7HRLR/WM6BCz0EWjOX98HYi3BS8QKE8s2TSmuTjcrgO+bv/hw4+vgfTZSypZ+5Xu SorrN54Sw1hNn/Um3kz6zO03kdL0WK2BkP9jesL9cYgyriIcUwrbVl8NbRqu3PIww7jK Bt8uJ46Vrif0/8NQPxxr/E0nEQ3lNYrSjKQdfLOR7Fb7Eq3XCleNrYPE69S69U596i6e eswjngLhZ781CJyKbI0Jh4SI6Ufgh1vK9VyD2jXo57mZ1lHmhztdQuYGHSX5vhB+zogH z9vjGl0x5bWlwV/hv3BsADBroeAph+2qA1n2B4gcIhXYUyrV7xeIvYlIpiiYQ3fdPFkg ZjLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UMvy89l25MZaOeZM9vz99egACg8cIICqlK7Xcvrcv1g=; b=r2k+ECn5OWSjfqjI9kDu15nt/8FTckJ/kfn8TiBHia9EuauQfB2ofKAVLol6S6dfed 74McjpXX9kk3nqNo9MEcfm3O8wg9O7A7kxVDL+eVDWJDpHxyue5mijsb1Qsu9Hsgc78j bbBPf8O4cj9WWGiYWvIeavn3ev7ejgQxVHAwgXO7f3U5NZZNkXwBa5KWE4qvpI/kDxac bsCNUX/tDhNNCC1fM7T5q7P0qgeTZg/fUSH9A5mDjbjy/vH1LYGnvaszxHAyepBEjCgp we0/gELq6jTyneV3ohnzcC3xdRAp2TMrY2e18ZT83s6BZwx8W3WNhb9OyVAIgadhnuks TSSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gEGaVu2aS89Bdu+4VpHSGAeRku/9TsWmvAmk8R0REUuf3p4/d 0l9vc3b+aWC9DS7f8iZw7vY6PVLfE3hKdn9bbY5NLw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPawpS2dft5okg2VjatHwecsIesBqZjL3nfmvaG9/5/GDmLY/h38exfviQjoQ1/qG6ctWNPuBI8tgrfxZrtzU= X-Received: by 2002:a02:838e:: with SMTP id z14mr11948724jag.84.1596302486537; Sat, 01 Aug 2020 10:21:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202007310003.06V03OoV073870@chez.mckusick.com> <1k1lj2-7nP-00@marmaro.de> <20200801141310.GQ10778@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aa5d0705abd422fe" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Dennis Ritchie's Dissertation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: Ken Thompson via TUHS Reply-To: Ken Thompson Cc: The Unix Heritage Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000aa5d0705abd422fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" long story: i have a friend with a phd in computer science. his wife has a phd in chaucer. i was having lunch with them when they were opening a bank account and were discussing what was to go on the checks. she wanted "dr & dr X", he said he would let her have her "dr", but insisted on "joe" - she hit the ceiling, "dr & joe X" wouldn't do. they both were very mad and "decided" on "dr and mr X." i am not sure what they put on the checks, but the best part of the story is when they left. they stomped out of the diner, very angry, and bumped into someone coming in. the guy coming in said "watch out asshole" and joe replied without hesitation "that's dr asshole to you." another friend, this time by name, bob (h) morris, would call me "boy" because he and i were the only non-phds within several floors at the labs. so, about dennis. he was always ambiguous about the title. from that, i gather that, since he put the time in, he wanted people to think he had a phd. but he never used the title because of the stigma around bell labs in so doing. so i would drop this discussion about him, which draws attention to the fact, leave it ambiguous and just call him "dennis." On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:44 AM Dan Cross wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:09 AM John P. Linderman > wrote: > >> The use of honorifics was subtly discouraged at the Labs. I never saw a >> policy statement, but nobody I knew used "Dr" (except those in the medical >> department), even though the place was crawling with doctoral degrees. >> > > My officemate has a PhD and told me a funny story. Someone (not him) from > his program graduated and shortly thereafter flew somewhere. Realizing that > they could put "Dr" as an honorific when booking their flight, this person > did so. Shortly after take-off, a flight attendant approached the > newly-minted PhD and said something along the lines of, "Uh, Doctor? We > have a passenger we think may be having a heart attack..." This person had > to quickly explain that they were not "that kind of doctor" but rather "the > other kind." The nonplussed flight attendant advised this person not to use > "Dr" as a title when booking future flights. As an aside, I have a close > friend who is a medical doctor and she's been on _five_ separate flights > where the flight attendants have asked for medical assistance from > qualified passengers: usually it's a heart-attack or an allergic reaction. > As a result, she now prescribes herself an epi pen and keeps it in her bag. > > I think there are times when titles are contextually appropriate: perhaps > on the byline of a paper, in accordance with the editorial guidelines of a > publication or conference proceedings or something, or perhaps when > teaching a class in an academic setting. Occasionally I teach a session of > a graduate course somewhere or another; less occasionally I get emails from > students who attended the lecture. I always find it flattering and amusing > when they variously refer to me as "Dr" or "Prof": I am neither, though I > understand that in academic settings that's simply the norm. > > About half of the people in the immediate vicinity of my office have PhDs. > When my kids have come to visit, I try to use titles and last names. > Sometimes this gets them confused, "why did I have to call that person Dr > So-and-so but you call her Lucy?" "Because you're six and I'm her > colleague." But otherwise everyone is on a first-name basis; if a PhD tried > to assert use of their title outside of some context where it's explicitly > relevant, I don't imagine it would go well and that person would likely not > remain in their position long due to a cultural mismatch. > > A particular impedance mismatch is when someone has a PhD in a completely > unrelated field: It's not unheard of for someone with a degree in the > humanities to work in software. I once briefly met someone who had worked > on MVS as a systems programmer, but who had a PhD in study of the Japanese > language. I doubt he insisted on being called "Doctor" at work. > > - Dan C. > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:14 AM Larry McVoy wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 09:14:36AM +0200, markus schnalke wrote: >>> > Hoi. >>> > >>> > [2020-07-30 20:30] Dan Cross >>> > > >>> > > I understood from Mike Anshel that he was rather proud of this, [...] >>> > >>> > I once read that someone is famous when people omit the titles, >>> > because they add nothing to the name, but rather would smaller it. >>> > A good example is Albert Einstein. Who cares what titles he has. >>> > >>> > Another is Dennis Ritchie. What does it matter what degrees, titles, >>> > whatever he has? -- He's already a genius! >>> >>> My dad wasn't famous, but he had a PhD in physics. He never asked people >>> to call him Dr McVoy. As we grew up and realized he could be called that >>> we asked him why not. He said it sounds fancy, the only time he used it >>> was when he wanted a table at a crowded restaurant (which was very rare, >>> Madison didn't pay him very well). >>> >>> Somehow that stuck with me and I've always been sort of wary of people >>> who use their title. The people I admire never did. >>> >>> Someone on the list said that they thought Dennis wouldn't appreciate >>> it if we got his PhD official. I couldn't put my finger on it at the >>> time, but I agreed. And I think it is because the people who are really >>> great don't need or want the fancy title. I may be over thinking it, >>> but Dennis does not need the title, it does nothing to make his legacy >>> better, his legacy is way way more than that title. >>> >>> Which is a long ramble to say I agree with Markus. >>> >> --000000000000aa5d0705abd422fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

long story:

i have a friend with a phd in compu= ter science.
his wife has a phd in chaucer.

i was having lunch wi= th them when they were
opening a bank account and were discussing
wha= t was to go on the checks.

she wanted "dr & dr X", he = said he would let
her have her "dr", but insisted on "joe= " -
she hit the ceiling, "dr & joe X" wouldn't do= .
they both were very mad and "decided" on "dr
and mr = X."

i am not sure what they put on the checks, but
the best = part of the story is when they left.
they stomped out of the diner, very= angry,
and bumped into someone coming in. the guy
coming in said &qu= ot;watch out asshole" and joe
replied without hesitation "that= 's dr asshole
to you."

another friend, this time by name= , bob (h) morris,
would call me "boy" because he and i were th= e
only non-phds within several floors at the labs.

so, about denn= is. he was always ambiguous about
the title. from that, i gather that, s= ince he
put the time in, he wanted people to think he
had a phd. but = he never used the title because
of the stigma around bell labs in so doi= ng.

so i would drop this discussion about him, which
draws attent= ion to the fact, leave it ambiguous
and just call him "dennis."= ;

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:44 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 11:09 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl@gmail.com> wrote:
The use of honorifics= was subtly discouraged at the Labs. I never saw a policy statement, but no= body I knew used "Dr" (except those in the medical department), e= ven though the place was crawling with doctoral degrees.

My officemate has a PhD and told me a funny story= . Someone (not him) from his program graduated and shortly thereafter flew = somewhere. Realizing that they could put "Dr" as an honorific whe= n booking their flight, this person did so. Shortly after take-off, a fligh= t attendant=C2=A0approached the newly-minted PhD and said something along t= he lines of, "Uh, Doctor? We have a passenger=C2=A0we think may be hav= ing a heart attack..." This person had to quickly explain that they we= re not "that kind of doctor" but rather "the other kind.&quo= t; The nonplussed flight attendant=C2=A0advised this person not to use &quo= t;Dr" as a title when booking future flights. As an aside, I have a cl= ose friend who is a medical doctor and she's been on _five_ separate fl= ights where the flight attendants have asked for medical assistance from qu= alified passengers: usually it's a heart-attack or an allergic reaction= . As a result, she now prescribes herself an epi pen and keeps it in her ba= g.

I think there are times when titles are context= ually appropriate: perhaps on the byline of a paper, in accordance with the= editorial guidelines of a publication or conference proceedings or somethi= ng, or perhaps when teaching a class in an academic setting. Occasionally I= teach a session of a graduate course somewhere or another; less occasional= ly I get emails from students who attended the lecture. I always find it fl= attering and amusing when they variously refer to me as "Dr" or &= quot;Prof": I am neither, though I understand that in academic setting= s that's simply the norm.

About half of the pe= ople in the immediate vicinity of my office have PhDs. When my kids have co= me to visit, I try to use titles and last names. Sometimes this gets them c= onfused, "why did=C2=A0I have to call that person Dr So-and-so but you= call her Lucy?" "Because you're six and I'm her colleagu= e." But otherwise everyone is on a first-name basis; if a PhD tried to= assert use of their title outside of some context where it's explicitl= y relevant, I don't imagine it would go well and that person would like= ly not remain in their position long due to a cultural mismatch.
=
A particular impedance mismatch is when someone has a PhD in= a completely unrelated field: It's not unheard of for someone with a d= egree in the humanities to work in software. I once briefly met someone who= had worked on MVS as a systems programmer, but who had a PhD in study of t= he Japanese language. I doubt he insisted on being called "Doctor"= ; at work.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

On Sat, Aug 1, 20= 20 at 10:14 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 01, 2020 at 09:14:36AM +0200, markus schnalke= wrote:
> Hoi.
>
> [2020-07-30 20:30] Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
> >
> > I understood from Mike Anshel that he was rather proud of this, [= ...]
>
> I once read that someone is famous when people omit the titles,
> because they add nothing to the name, but rather would smaller it.
> A good example is Albert Einstein. Who cares what titles he has.
>
> Another is Dennis Ritchie. What does it matter what degrees, titles, > whatever he has? -- He's already a genius!

My dad wasn't famous, but he had a PhD in physics.=C2=A0 He never asked= people
to call him Dr McVoy.=C2=A0 As we grew up and realized he could be called t= hat
we asked him why not.=C2=A0 He said it sounds fancy, the only time he used = it
was when he wanted a table at a crowded restaurant (which was very rare, Madison didn't pay him very well).

Somehow that stuck with me and I've always been sort of wary of people<= br> who use their title.=C2=A0 The people I admire never did.

Someone on the list said that they thought Dennis wouldn't appreciate it if we got his PhD official.=C2=A0 I couldn't put my finger on it at = the
time, but I agreed.=C2=A0 And I think it is because the people who are real= ly
great don't need or want the fancy title.=C2=A0 I may be over thinking = it,
but Dennis does not need the title, it does nothing to make his legacy
better, his legacy is way way more than that title.

Which is a long ramble to say I agree with Markus.
--000000000000aa5d0705abd422fe--