From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6FC212A0 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 02:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1160A4331C; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 10:46:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yw1-x112d.google.com (mail-yw1-x112d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A42F943319 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 10:46:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yw1-x112d.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62a08092c4dso60168377b3.0 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:46:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1718758012; x=1719362812; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=PGaFTKhoIqacMakNb831dUEUEAsfMQzDXW71gQih4jw=; b=kUOmXgOV1Dn9oomgscUh55r/F01C26s/zI5tbMjK66LQwvlopDFkT5d2sqvyZz2ver i2aYmMR6mwlHT5AC6Qyd3ZkaKSLvk43xvudqzogrxcjv9HGS6g41zTDqqfqcXXqQcKuv jlDnnTaRSpyJXe7ASXhM791UZ5vw2/M2yzFP3J8RLyZl/QfZP6CGNhQnPyt5pJEWCDHQ xQDRac26OLyHWSScYRzJMnKux8lHOarPLXhtWElE9nQ3nUf4aFIvJI8H6wwEciaB5Jzq hPNEiSoUc+knvm7LdqYQleaLSTvr74CkgoWW+KVLgwaOQOZrDL0YuaCsas6dFhY+ML/i 8WXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718758012; x=1719362812; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:reply-to:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=PGaFTKhoIqacMakNb831dUEUEAsfMQzDXW71gQih4jw=; b=KuzJhGpylAum/tis8PP+obl19yk7xj0yImDVCk5axpeJ3fsqvoFV9T0eWG3UHfjrYW btx7BZp2anTMDrqGaiVpewZryNagoesQDNtFctAgEFXMO5b0y1XHB5eMjqSRd1EDC73f KxZi7aYvFb6JiPQ6ht0/+u6OrJYVG4iIXTt0QZwO+NQTH/24KNKKuC+FQXDAYj+cujrY kZXtb4QdJqwnsbWfM1TJH97ZOZbWn/Z8Km4QS/zHpV6DXZkaeVyEXmWYgfNuTiYqm6ZI Ei80OeaOsozEgY4ZenZUHrJyqckvLNBnmFfdS1BPmR37Qb0bT9WuqUo6BOH6Wfe2lxQ6 agcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxW6BvgKWwJ6dOFcC7XgKDGe4s6jISKXXWc6ezuhHqcRR99FS3j t4ZqUnAjwE3VnDmxg1FXE6bpOMmr98SgDsCcE5wpBp5rnEAhbL2vT1xct7N9mtUYp3CyGBMx8cP wv51PBURaGziZ01PhX8QJxeaYwTd0aqAv X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH6WjOdGaTfhpEJLaQqVoS10xLsjCRM8LqM4B5wx9EQeV6suLPCvn+7mtMy6sfrLSMJyMlY9EUhEmdK0baJHwY= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:dec5:0:b0:62f:4149:7604 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-63a8d72f7b3mr13586947b3.4.1718758011968; Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> <0e6792ed-65b0-e2e1-8159-6426a7f15a8d@riddermarkfarm.ca> <9f9db0d2-8a6a-26cc-a0ba-b6fc5d6474cb@makerlisp.com> In-Reply-To: <9f9db0d2-8a6a-26cc-a0ba-b6fc5d6474cb@makerlisp.com> From: Nevin Liber Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 19:46:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c22610061b338829" Message-ID-Hash: 6DHIGYTCDOEIXCY3MSWQ7OOJRESRZH2E X-Message-ID-Hash: 6DHIGYTCDOEIXCY3MSWQ7OOJRESRZH2E X-MailFrom: nliber@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Reply-To: nliber@gmail.com Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000c22610061b338829 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 7:09=E2=80=AFPM Luther Johnson wrote: > I agree with Greg here. In fact even if it was well done, it is > declaring something that wasn't really a problem, to be a problem, to > insert itself as the solution, but I think it's just extra stuff and > steps that ultimately obfuscates and creates yet more dependencies. > That's a really bold claim. You may not like the solution (I don't tend to comment on it because unlike some here, I recognize that build systems are a Hard Problem and I don't know how to make a better solution), but that doesn't mean it isn't solving real problems. But I'll bite. There was the claim by Larry McVoy that "Writing Makefiles isn't that hard". Please show these beautiful makefiles for a non-toy non-trivial product (say, something like gcc or llvm), which make it easy to change platforms, underlying compilers, works well with modern multicore processors, gets the dependencies right (one should never have to type "make clean" to get a build working correctly), etc. and doesn't require blindly running some 20K line shell script like "configure" to set it up. --=20 Nevin ":-)" Liber iber@gmail.com> +1-847-691-1404 --000000000000c22610061b338829 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 7:09=E2=80=AFPM L= uther Johnson <luther.jo= hnson@makerlisp.com> wrote:
I agree with Greg here. In fact even if it was well done, it i= s
declaring something that wasn't really a problem, to be a problem, to insert itself as the solution, but I think it's just extra stuff and steps that ultimately obfuscates and creates yet more dependencies.

That's a really bold claim.=C2=A0 You may = not like the solution (I don't tend to comment on it because unlike som= e here, I recognize that build systems are a Hard Problem and I don't k= now how to make a better solution), but that doesn't mean it isn't = solving real problems.

But I'll bite.=C2=A0 Th= ere was the claim by Larry McVoy that "Writing Makefiles isn't tha= t hard".

Please show these beautiful makefile= s for a non-toy non-trivial product (say, something like gcc or llvm), whic= h make it easy to change platforms, underlying compilers, works well with m= odern multicore processors, gets the dependencies right (one should never h= ave to type "make clean" to get a build working correctly), etc. = and doesn't require blindly running some 20K line shell script like &qu= ot;configure" to set it up.
--
=C2=A0Nevin ":-)" Liber=C2=A0 <mailto:nliber@gmail.com>=C2=A0 +1-847-691-14= 04
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