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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
@ 2020-07-17 21:56 Alexander Voropay
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Voropay @ 2020-07-17 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

IMMSMC the early Linux had problems with some old-good programs i.e. Sendmail.
New-born Linux hesitated between POSIX-BSD-Solaris semantic
i.e. in file-locking, pty, network interface binding e.t.c.


From the early Sendmail README:
===

Linux
Something broke between versions 0.99.13 and 0.99.14 of Linux:
the flock() system call gives errors.  If you are running .14,
you must not use flock.  You can do this with -DHASFLOCK=0.

Around the inclusion of bind-4.9.3 & linux libc-4.6.20, the
initialization of the _res structure changed.  If /etc/hosts.conf
was configured as "hosts, bind" the resolver code could return
"Name server failure" errors.  This is supposedly fixed in
later versions of libc (>= 4.6.29?), and later versions of
sendmail (> 8.6.10) try to work around the problem.

Some older versions (< 4.6.20?) of the libc/include files conflict
with sendmail's version of cdefs.h.  Deleting sendmail's version
on those systems should be non-harmful, and new versions don't care.

Sendmail assumes that libc has snprintf, which has been true since
libc 4.7.0.  If you are running an older version, you will need to
use -DHASSNPRINTF=0 in the Makefile.  If may be able to use -lbsd
(which includes snprintf) instead of turning this off on versions
of libc between 4.4.4 and 4.7.0 (snprintf improves security, so
you want to use this if at all possible).

NOTE ON LINUX & BIND:  By default, the Makefiles for linux include
header files in /usr/local/include and libraries in /usr/local/lib.
If you've installed BIND on your system, the header files typically
end up in the search path and you need to add "-lresolv" to the
LIBS line in your Makefile.  Really old versions may need to include
"-l44bsd" as well (particularly if the link phase complains about
missing strcasecmp, strncasecmp or strpbrk).  Complaints about an
undefined reference to `__dn_skipname' in domain.o are a sure sign
that you need to add -lresolv to LIBS.  Newer versions of linux
are basically threaded BIND, so you may or may not see complaints
if you accidentally mix BIND headers/libraries with virginal libc.
If you have BIND headers in /usr/local/include (resolv.h, etc)
you *should* be adding -lresolv to LIBS.  Data structures may change
and you'd be asking for a core dump.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
@ 2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-22 16:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-21 22:41, Jason wrote:
> The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
> https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill
> 
> It’s pretty awesome.
> 
> 
>     	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS
> installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
> I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
> Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit
> vendor so no updates...

Guess that explains why he's not touched it since 2014.  The 
'emaculation'
github account[0] seems to be where the primary dev work on it is being 
done
now, but seems to be slow going, the last commit was Sept 2019.

> As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.
>  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was
> sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy
> rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Jason @ 2020-07-22  3:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp, Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

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    	The emulator Shoebill can run A/UX
https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill

It’s pretty awesome.
    	

    	3.0 is the last version that is stable(ish).  Naturally the MacOS installer won’t run so a bunch of Unix legwork is required.
I’m not sure if this email will make the list but I’ll try....
Anyway the developer of Shoebill got snapped up by a certain fruit vendor so no updates...

As for A/UX it’s SYSV with the c and fortran compilers built in.  Apparently it was going to be Steve’s “Big Mac” project that was sidelined after he was pushed out.  Although there is so many crazy rumours of that window at the end of Apple and the start of NeXT.
    
  




On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 4:24 AM +0800, "Ed Carp" <erc@pobox.com> wrote:










Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling  wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.






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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-20  0:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I look about once a year. Haven't found it yet. :(<div
id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
	<tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
		<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

On 7/18/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Michael Parson @ 2020-07-19 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2020-07-18 23:42, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
>> I'd still love to have that running.
> 
> I think I've seen articles about people running it running
> virtualization / emulation.

As far as I've been able to find, there is only one emulator that can 
run A/UX, shoebill[0].

I've got a Mac Quadra 950 with a Workgroup Server 95 card in it in the 
garage that I've been planning on someday trying to get A/UX running on, 
but haven't found enough round tuits.

Maybe if someone could rip the 680[34]0+MMU bits out of Win/FS-UAE 
(Amiga emulator) and patch them into Basilisk II (Mac 68K emulator), 
A/UX might work there.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

[0] https://github.com/emaculation/shoebill


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
@ 2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: emanuel stiebler @ 2020-07-19 10:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross, Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 2020-07-17 16:03, Dan Cross wrote:

> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
> 
> :-D

That's why DEC made also the MicroVAX. I had once a MVII/BA23 in my
samsonite. Weird look at customs, but worked ;-)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
@ 2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Sergio Pedraja @ 2020-07-19  9:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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El vie., 17 jul. 2020 22:08, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> escribió:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

Absolutely right :-)

Sergio

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
@ 2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2020-07-19  7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christopher Browne; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Christopher Browne wrote:
> - Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
> where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
> interface

Another MiNT user here.  After that, I tried both NetBSD and Linux on a
Falcon030.  NetBSD wouldn't work, which may be why I keep to Linux now.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
@ 2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-19  4:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/18/20 9:46 PM, Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'd still love to have that running.

I think I've seen articles about people running it running 
virtualization / emulation.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
@ 2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Wesley Parish @ 2020-07-19  3:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

I remember in the early 90s, just when I was needing to use computers,
thus getting actively interested in them, reading an article in one of
the Mac mags on A/UX and thinking, that and a top performing
Macintosh! life couldn't get any sweeter!

Almost thirty years later, worked my way through Mac, MS/PC DOS plus
Windows, OS/2, Windows NT/2K,XP/7/8.1/10, Linux and running a few OSes
now on virtual machines, and I'd still love to have that running.

Though I suspect it'd be more in the background ...

Wesley Parish

On 7/19/20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.
>>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
  2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
  2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Gregg Levine @ 2020-07-19  2:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Hello!
Wow. I actually met with the folks at Apple, here in NYC regarding that OS.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 4:31 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
>> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>
>
> Google can find it, if you really need it.
>
> Warner
>
>> On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
>> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
>> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
>> > A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
@ 2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-18 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ed Carp; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 2:23 PM Ed Carp <erc@pobox.com> wrote:

> Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
> around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!
>

Google can find it, if you really need it.

Warner

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:
>
> > Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> > criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> > possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> > A/UX.
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Ed Carp @ 2020-07-18 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Michael Kjörling; +Cc: tuhs

Oh, boy, now you've got me started. I worked on A/UX at Apple back
around 1992. I'd love to find a copy of that!

On 7/17/20, Michael Kjörling <michael@kjorling.se> wrote:

> Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
> criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
> possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
> A/UX.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (4 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
@ 2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Browne @ 2020-07-18 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 15:58, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

I think back to those mouldy oldie days, and my set of early things were...
- First got exposed to BSD 4.1 with MFCF extensions ('86)
- Couldn't afford *real* hardware, so I tracked whatever could run on
   Atari ST, and the biggest improvement I was able to get there was
   to be able to run Bash, early GCC, and sundry GNU tools, where
   I couldn't spawn multiple processes, but there was still plenty of useful
- Then followed the MiNT period (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiNT)
   where we accepted that MiNT is NOT TOS, but still lended a POSIX
   interface, only to be briefly overjoyed at the rename to "MiNT is
   NOW TOS"
- First paid work on Unix ('93) involved SCO (where that was the
  debugging platform for some C code targeting VMS!); that was a
  platform where I was pretty overjoyed to discover I could run multiple
  terms on a single console.  And found it odd when people thought this
  was a huge innovation of Linux...

I'm not sure I have much that's extraordinarily interesting to say about
MiNT, but I'd think that to be pretty on-topic for TUHS :-).
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

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* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2020-07-18  3:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > 
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I think that perhaps some codewords should be adopted for various *nix
flavours/implementations/reimplementations. For example: linux =
frogboat. Nobody will ever come here to ask about fixing problem with
this.

And besides, I would really not mind if there was a single place where
I could read something about frogboat and other dolls. Reusing this
list for such purpose is ok for me, since I am already subscribed.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2020-07-17 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 6:43 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
>> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
>> So no need for that here.
>>
>
> "Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
> the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"
>
> :-D
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

Those VAXen weren't just colossal physically. What, with that huge address
space, all the meticulous care that was put into making Unix small and
beautiful went right out the window. Truly, it was the beginning of the
end. ;-)

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 14:55 -0600, from tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
>> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm
>> allowed to use such a designation.
> 
> Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?
> 
> I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard
> definition of what qualifies or not.

Well, that was sort of the point I tried to imply by my "if I'm
allowed to use such a designation". It's hard to define precisely.

For the moment, I think I'll go with "an operating system and
associated userspace toolset that traces an unbroken source code
lineage back to the original UNIX system". With the specific caveat
that my intent was to go _beyond_ that, by including Unix derivatives
such as Linux.

Which, by the way, and also meeting your "25 years old or older"
criteria, looks like it would also include every version (with the
possible exception of the last version or so; that was 1995-1996) of
A/UX.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 7/17/20 2:08 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line 
> somewhere

Agree.

I use the following questions as a litmus test, requiring both to be true.

1)  Does it fall into the broad category of Unix or Unix like operating 
systems?

2)  Is it old ~> historic?

I use the "historic car" definition as a guideline for how old "old" is. 
  Specifically 25 years old, or older.

If both of those answers are "yes", then I figure that at worst, someone 
might ask "please take this topic to COFF or elsewhere.

I figure that there's a little bit of wiggle room for other topics, but 
would not be surprised if I needed to justify why it belongs on TUHS vs 
COFF.  E.g. trying to resurrect an ancient protocol used by <bla>.

> similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes, if I'm 
> allowed to use such a designation.

Eh ... can I get something to wash that down?

I'm "okay" with such designations if you will back them up with a hard 
definition of what qualifies or not.

> As a rule of thumb, something along the lines of: if it's got a 
> historical application (say, "how do I get UUCP running on this 
> Linux installation designed to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's 
> on topic; if it's solely about modern systems ("how do I get Wayland 
> running with my Nvidia GeForce RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

ACK



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2020-07-17 20:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>
> Cheers, Warren
>

+1 works for me.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
  2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-17 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 2:08 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
>
> Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
> Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
> isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).
>

That's in line with the rest: I can't come here for FreeBSD or Illumos
support either. But talking about how they forked, etc is fine.

Warner

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
  2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
  2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2020-07-17 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 17 Jul 2020 12:57 -0700, from lm@mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy):
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> 
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.

I agree. For topicality, I think it's reasonable to draw the line
somewhere similar to what's already the case with the "true" unixes,
if I'm allowed to use such a designation. As a rule of thumb,
something along the lines of: if it's got a historical application
(say, "how do I get UUCP running on this Linux installation designed
to replicate a 1992 system?") then it's on topic; if it's solely about
modern systems ("how do I get Wayland running with my Nvidia GeForce
RTX 2060 Super?") then it's off topic.

So, really, no significant change there.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
@ 2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
                         ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 3 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:57:18PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.

Correct. It's all about Heritage on The Unix Heritage Society mailing list.
Chat about the early days of Linux is fine; helping to get Wayland to work
isn't (at least, not for another 20 years or so).

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Oh yeah, I wasn't talking about your post, your post was fine.  I was
thinking more like "Does anyone know how to get $DEVICE to work in
ubuntu 5.13?".  I think that is what Grant meant as well.

Historical is great.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 01:00:27PM -0700, Adam Thornton wrote:
> I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
> an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> > >
> > > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
> >
> > But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> > Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> > and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> > So no need for that here.
> >

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
  2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
  2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
  2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
                       ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 2 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2020-07-17 20:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 3:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

"Back in my day, we had VAXen! And you couldn't carry them anywhere! And
the disc drives weighed a hundred pounds! AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY!"

:-D

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
                       ` (4 subsequent siblings)
  5 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I think that "Where can I find a clean copy of an HJ Lu boot/root set?" is
an acceptable-for-here Linux tech support question, to be honest.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:58 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> >
> > I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.
>
> But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
> Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
> and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
> So no need for that here.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
@ 2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
                       ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 27+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 19:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 05:53:58AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> > origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> > Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> > him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

But +1 to Grant's point not to turn TUHS into a Linux support forum.
Quite frankly, I'm old dude who relies on his kids to fix his phone
and I can google and find answers to just about any Linux problem.
So no need for that here.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux is on-topic
  2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
@ 2020-07-17 19:53 ` Warren Toomey
  2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 27+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2020-07-17 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history..
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!

I'm happy with it, you silly twisted boy, you.

Cheers, Warren

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 27+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-07-22 16:16 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 27+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-17 21:56 [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Alexander Voropay
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-07-17 18:08 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Norman Wilson
2020-07-17 19:53 ` [TUHS] Linux is on-topic Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 19:57   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:00     ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17 20:04       ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 20:03     ` Dan Cross
2020-07-17 23:31       ` A. P. Garcia
2020-07-19 10:26       ` emanuel stiebler
2020-07-17 20:07     ` Warren Toomey
2020-07-17 20:12       ` Warner Losh
2020-07-17 20:19       ` Clem Cole
2020-07-19  9:54       ` Sergio Pedraja
2020-07-17 20:08     ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-17 20:55       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 21:28         ` Michael Kjörling
2020-07-18 20:22           ` Ed Carp
2020-07-18 20:29             ` Warner Losh
2020-07-19  2:31               ` Gregg Levine
2020-07-19  3:46               ` Wesley Parish
2020-07-19  4:42                 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-19 18:01                   ` Michael Parson
2020-07-20  0:24               ` Ed Carp
2020-07-22  3:41             ` Jason
2020-07-22 16:15               ` Michael Parson
2020-07-18  3:34     ` Tomasz Rola
2020-07-18 16:45     ` Christopher Browne
2020-07-19  7:32       ` Lars Brinkhoff

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