From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29232 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2021 02:22:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2021 02:22:27 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A88769C887; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:22:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB279C86C; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:21:28 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="hPRh2Tha"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 07CF09C864; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:21:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f41.google.com (mail-wr1-f41.google.com [209.85.221.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B76239C864 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2021 12:21:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f41.google.com with SMTP id a13so14650179wrf.10 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 19:21:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cPpohSdnSbPccEpVis8jekMrde1siNHfk9RQz7eJbCg=; b=hPRh2ThadAZSX2tjDBaHr84EjN2cW9b+CqNm2W1n4YABSj7X3xt0cSWnYtudaa6EKp 3vWP9UbAx9dASWigHrBCNDiyR9I9ZaieAcxoVb1MFhenn8QDTHJ+lSyHcILTI3mFIJp4 YLRCYwD9K+5FQO2Mc67B6U+ZaV3X49OOECx77iYbahkzvc4+O0SHy9OaNVPlEDIs/jS5 FOHsXsCgUiM/D86/3Qly4ypfqOHY0OCR84kznkc5e9u+Fj4LAcXeWAq+c2B0cnkbIOCA 4L01ah6/NdE+/ehcrIXp3wmn4ba3mPV657t5f+UvdfojqwO9EiSDod1X/7G8DoeQj4FV DXtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cPpohSdnSbPccEpVis8jekMrde1siNHfk9RQz7eJbCg=; b=V/WJI+zvwjFVEqpptlCKcIn0zj4aPjTe/6gmNKdAhT8VFlJfyfd1t5T9mRTC8fHnF2 3GIMOqCcFV+ae5U7zHJCYiWQWcd/Xo/IiYddcAlpkTiv03tMHn7HXs3Nq8oIuKEscDae OMoIED+I2r/eRkEPEFt1hzGQHz4qif1BUivXHMKItj13zcdO03DzCULRlKk3yNa/ObF7 qYH0zuJiH2ugKa3y2XSrGeP7BsqGLUtz2iHNh6FTuZMmB8g9YfzAVjLqGFzXeqa1fpTq Zqe0PvNTAdXJPfdp7/rPDpsJ7ZFwHCNtmLM7t+k1a2WB1PMQk4ENLhfp3wpXnag9y8Au 2rJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532YtcPs/7O9acO7gs1GR9jMhMJk8VQWIvKwBtWaJ4bWekde4oam 1yl2hcA9dy7B2qV7SC3AN2qi3IZALbf7DMpD/IQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9fKEeZqhswDutgWk+dpQTTwoLTtm/xgwJjURPA/IqHXbmuTJYk8lwyytIaC4DAF/yJG0YwPWetDJhV6KUIqg= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:49c9:: with SMTP id t9mr2770300wrs.364.1625278883329; Fri, 02 Jul 2021 19:21:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Day Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2021 20:21:07 -0600 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000807b0805c62ebab4" Subject: Re: [TUHS] First machine to run rogue? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000807b0805c62ebab4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Quoting from David Craddock's book, Dungeon Hacks (2015), pages 34-35: > By the time Toy and Wichman started at UC Santa Cruz, BSD UNIX had entered > widespread usage across UC campuses and was branching out to other schools. > Each new version of BSD, released on cassette tape, included handy programs > written by Joy and other hackers. One program was curses, written by Ken > Arnold. Arnold had written curses according to the UNIX creed: a simple > tool fashioned for a specific purpose. Wielding curses like a paintbrush, > users could place text such as letters, numbers, and symbols at any > location on the screen. The moment he used curses, Toy saw its potential. In 1980, he went to > Wichman and suggested they use curses to create a graphical adventure game > with a twist. Unlike Colossal Cave Adventure and its derivatives, their > game would construct brand new environments and challenges every time. An > avid Dungeons & Dragons player, he invented a fantasy-themed setting and > premise. Players would assume the identity of an adventurer who entered the > Dungeons of Doom, a series of levels filled with monsters and treasure. Wichman loved the idea and dubbed the game Rogue. "I think the name just > came to me. Names needed to be short because you invoked a program by > typing its name in a command line. I liked the idea of a rogue. We were > coming from a Dungeons & Dragons background, but we were creating a > single-player game. You weren't going down into the dungeon with a party. > The idea was that this is a person going off on his or her own. It captured > the theme very succinctly." Apropos of UNIX, Toy chose to write Rogue in the C language. C produced > fast code, while BASIC was slower and meant for smaller programs. Wichman, > still a few steps behind Toy in programming prowess, learned C by watching > Toy program their game. "The early alpha versions of Rogue were probably > all my code, but Glenn [Wichman] made lots of contributions in terms of > design," Toy recalled. "I think it's quite fair to say that the game was a > pretty straight collaboration between Glenn [Wichman], Ken [Arnold], and me > by the time it was done. I feel pretty good about that." Toy and Wichman realized they wouldn't be able to stay at school during all > hours to write their game. Fortunately, they didn't need to. As employees > of the computer science division, they had special lab privileges. Setting > up an ADM-3a terminal in their apartment, they could dial into the VAX > 11/780 shunted off in a basement somewhere at UC Santa Cruz. The connection > was established through their 300-baud modem -- a device that would take > several minutes to transmit the text on an average-length Wikipedia page > today -- enabling them to write the vast majority of Rogue from the comfort > of their apartment. Craddock's notes explain that the quotes of Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman "come from interviews conducted via phone, Skype, and email over 2012-2014." I think you must be right about the first machine being something running BSD UNIX. Matt On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:07 PM Dan Cross wrote: > What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written > by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the > `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen > at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that > doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 > ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. > > Anyone have any info? Thanks! > > - Dan C. > > --000000000000807b0805c62ebab4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quoting from David Craddock's book, Dungeon Hacks= (2015), pages 34-35:
By the time Toy and Wichman started at UC Santa Cruz, BSD UNIX had en= tered widespread usage across UC campuses and was branching out to other sc= hools. Each new version of BSD, released on cassette tape, included handy p= rograms written by Joy and other hackers. One program was curses, written b= y Ken Arnold. Arnold had written curses according to the UNIX creed: a simp= le tool fashioned for a specific purpose. Wielding curses like a paintbrush= , users could place text such as letters, numbers, and symbols at any locat= ion on the screen.
=C2=A0
= The moment he used curses, Toy saw its potential. In 1980, he went to Wichm= an and suggested they use curses to create a graphical adventure game with = a twist. Unlike Colossal Cave Adventure and its derivatives, their game wou= ld construct brand new environments and challenges every time. An avid Dung= eons & Dragons player, he invented a fantasy-themed setting and premise= . Players would assume the identity of an adventurer who entered the Dungeo= ns of Doom, a series of levels filled with monsters and treasure.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Wichman loved the idea= and dubbed the game Rogue. "I think the name just came to me. Names n= eeded to be short because you invoked a program by typing its name in a com= mand line. I liked the idea of a rogue. We were coming from a Dungeons &= ; Dragons background, but we were creating a single-player game. You weren&= #39;t going down into the dungeon with a party. The idea was that this is a= person going off on his or her own. It captured the theme very succinctly.= "
=C2=A0=
Apropos of U= NIX, Toy chose to write Rogue in the C language. C produced fast code, whil= e BASIC was slower and meant for smaller programs. Wichman, still a few ste= ps behind Toy in programming prowess, learned C by watching Toy program the= ir game. "The early alpha versions of Rogue were probably all my code,= but Glenn [Wichman] made lots of contributions in terms of design," T= oy recalled. "I think it's quite fair to say that the game was a p= retty straight collaboration between Glenn [Wichman], Ken [Arnold], and me = by the time it was done. I feel pretty good about that."
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0
Toy and Wichman realized they wo= uldn't be able to stay at school during all hours to write their game. = Fortunately, they didn't need to. As employees of the computer science = division, they had special lab privileges. Setting up an ADM-3a terminal in= their apartment, they could dial into the VAX 11/780 shunted off in a base= ment somewhere at UC Santa Cruz. The connection was established through the= ir 300-baud modem -- a device that would take several minutes to transmit t= he text on an average-length Wikipedia page today -- enabling them to write= the vast majority of Rogue from the comfort of their apartment.

Craddock's notes explain that the quotes of Micha= el Toy and Glenn Wichman "come from interviews conducted via phone, Sk= ype, and email over 2012-2014."

I think you m= ust be right about the first machine being something running BSD UNIX.

Matt

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 8:07 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
What was th= e first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written by Glenn Wic= hman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the `curses` library = (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen at l= east one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that doesn&#= 39;t sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 (&= quot;rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship c= urses.

Anyone have any info? Thanks!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

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