From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13830 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2023 00:22:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Aug 2023 00:22:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CAA426AC; Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:22:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-x531.google.com (mail-pg1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::531]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29125426AB for ; Sun, 6 Aug 2023 10:22:35 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-x531.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-564b6276941so1660077a12.3 for ; Sat, 05 Aug 2023 17:22:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1691281354; x=1691886154; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=YrkVaqxA9QxdyKjgpKpFQ0dx0HWBivOygALdLNWHCJE=; b=o9KVURafVw4r1PF8cP3T4eMlX5YyQYbYZzYxts3exAE4EMMSgPxeNCebJdfSni67PO JvgLnl5FDSCJbhuxxnvHABDb6sorXMoWEKZRKDVyhmAIAtls8rr7r1wJUPnPIQ3NH8wT Acrd7RqhIfgNvn2Xp7WFqEWtk/KAgACfdzG819Xtr/nyTVIireWe5huseSXOSNVLHIp1 7Rywf+Di2ARDHFigcNANA0kstbjyf8MOYbnCOx+AAypJNOt9YAhF0jCvnx3/pm5k7s6i 70qcsjY6fzywRt8OZ1iY6K4zAVJo4NwMClTwj/h459jXUVfaGm5QUpeObZJym/cfbUjQ lIpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691281354; x=1691886154; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=YrkVaqxA9QxdyKjgpKpFQ0dx0HWBivOygALdLNWHCJE=; b=BvJaYKQfxHz1fVMPjGeVN4n49WZl9XsB+01lDAR1EF4QwzSAw8wzLrWav6iidrGI2F It/7Xt7c9B85WS56FS+21HVqWU99nsNVxbrXnXQ0t/UILzfUy9yVbds0IXNbLDQYI6s1 INp4SBFGybmYq1IPDt+E/tQI4S5Ldys+TiyhmRVnxkPWvD06ECoQ1obncTRrB3lJHS+y 1TDA0bnl8gjBvNWAasTjEnDkwWpX+wFi5CsDVZPXFrHMVp1ZhUiD8liqBTolGU6ZuoLG Rua+AiZ7aQnTSmxA+i1PqlnZDcXBczV8aAfa8PAgx/ugg+grxkrG3wZUQiz1m81sS7VU 5ArQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx7MjhCIloD9QxfkrWI2xNJI4uN9r3EkfwFsR5K9qhGI4lRu3P4 zjJZHSJefRHUHeIy6pxTaREF4UMTfs+auzKeUIY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHdM46AZNy28va1UgnkMAX0G7o8YbBnzKBRvPaBXKGK/lMXXK45Utftk2nr+3cSE/HH6MOxCQlCqPZqpU/Fmo0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:f510:b0:268:93d:b93c with SMTP id cs16-20020a17090af51000b00268093db93cmr5448064pjb.13.1691281354187; Sat, 05 Aug 2023 17:22:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <709cc67b2a5670f2038914beafd605c4@yaccman.com> In-Reply-To: <709cc67b2a5670f2038914beafd605c4@yaccman.com> From: KenUnix Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2023 20:22:17 -0400 Message-ID: To: scj@yaccman.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054eb04060236205b" Message-ID-Hash: VO6TM6IQVYRNUEDJ3YZE6ERDLDIDLEDP X-Message-ID-Hash: VO6TM6IQVYRNUEDJ3YZE6ERDLDIDLEDP X-MailFrom: ken.unix.guy@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_Kj=C3=B6rling?= , tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --00000000000054eb04060236205b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thing I like is VI because it is almost universal. Windows, Linux, BSD and Unix. In a pinch I use "ed". Sad to hear today that its creator has passed away. --Ken On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:53=E2=80=AFPM wrote: > I took typing in Summer School. My parents bought me a typewriter with > mathematical symbols on it, which was almost worthless, and I had to > improvise to get some of the standard characters (for example, the > semicolon was comma/backspace/colon). By the time I was talking to > computers ( Model 33 tty) I was happy that I couldn't type faster because > it was impossible on that thing. > > Steve > --- > > > > On 2022-11-02 00:11, Rob Pike wrote: > > Neither ken nor dmr were impressive typists. In fact few programmers were > then, at least of my acquaintance. > > In the 1970s Bell Labs created the Getset - think of it as an early wired > smartphone, or a Minitel, with a little screen and keyboard. It cost quit= e > a bit but was a cool gadget so the executives all got one. But, in > fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a generation later, no one would > touch it - literally - because it had a keyboard, and keyboards were for > (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. The product, although well > ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to the cultural bias then. > > There may be a good sociology paper in there somewhere. > > I'm not saying K&D shared this blinkered view, not at all, just that > typing skills were not de facto back then. Some of the folks were even > two-finger jabbers. I was a little younger and a faster typist than most = of > the others, and I am not a good typist by any modern standard. > > bwk was one who could smash out the text faster than many. His having > learned on a teletype, the keyboard would resound with the impact of his > forceful keystrokes. > > -rob > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kj=C3=B6rling > wrote: > > On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > > There's at least one Internet meme that highly productive coders > > necessarily have good keyboard skills, which leads to also producing > > documentation or, at least, not avoiding it entirely, as often > > happens commercially. > > I wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard > skills definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as > text, I'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet > write complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_ > need to consider each word that they use because typing an extra > sentence takes them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a > normal sentence, revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out > the same sentence takes a minute or a minute and a half. > > Also, certainly in my case and I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my > time "coding" isn't spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but > rather considering possible solutions to a problem, and what the > consequences would be of different choices. That part of the software > development process is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a > typist, and I expect that the effect would be even more pronounced for > someone using something like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern > computer and visual editor. Again, the longer it takes to revise > something, the more it makes sense to get it right on the first > attempt, even if that means some preparatory work up-front. > > Writing documentation is probably more an issue of mindset and being > allowed the time, than it is a question of how good one is as a > typist. > > -- > =F0=9F=AA=B6 Michael Kj=C3=B6rling =F0=9F=8F=A1 https://= michael.kjorling.se > "Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?" > > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED --00000000000054eb04060236205b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The thing I like is VI because it is a= lmost universal. Windows, Linux, BSD and Unix.

In = a pinch I use "ed".

Sad to hear toda= y that its creator has passed away.

--Ken


On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:53=E2=80=AFPM <scj@yaccman.com> wrote:

I took typing in Summer School.=C2=A0 My parents bought me a typewriter = with mathematical symbols on it, which was almost worthless, and I had to i= mprovise to get some of the standard characters (for example, the semicolon= was comma/backspace/colon).=C2=A0 By the time I was talking to computers (= Model 33 tty) I was happy that I couldn't type faster because it was i= mpossible on that thing.

Steve

---
=C2=A0


On 2022-11-02 00:11, Rob Pike w= rote:

Neither ken nor dmr were impres= sive typists. In fact few programmers were then, at least of my acquaintanc= e.
=C2=A0
In the 1970s Bell Labs created = the Getset - think of it as an early wired smartphone, or a Minitel, with a= little screen and keyboard. It cost quite a bit but was a cool gadget so t= he executives all got one. But, in fascinating contrast to the Blackberry a= generation later, no one would touch it - literally - because it had a key= board, and keyboards were for (female) secretaries, not (male) executives. = The product, although well ahead of its time, was a complete failure due to= the cultural bias then.
=C2=A0
There may be a good sociology p= aper in there somewhere.
=C2=A0
I'm not saying K&D shar= ed this blinkered view, not at all, just that typing skills were not de fac= to back then. Some of the folks were even two-finger jabbers. I was a littl= e younger and a faster typist than most of the others, and I am not a good = typist by any modern standard.
=C2=A0
bwk was one who could smash out= the text faster than many. His having learned on a teletype, the keyboard = would resound with the impact of his forceful keystrokes.
=C2=A0
-rob
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:53 PM Michael Kj=C3=B6rling <<= a href=3D"mailto:e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan= k">e5655f30a07f@ewoof.net> wrote:
On 2 Nov 2022 13:36 +1100, from sjenkin@c= anb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin):
> There's at least one Intern= et meme that highly productive coders
> necessarily have good keyboar= d skills, which leads to also producing
> documentation or, at least,= not avoiding it entirely, as often
> happens commercially.

I = wouldn't be so sure that this necessarily follows. Good keyboard
ski= lls definitely help with the mechanics of typing code as well as
text, I= 'll certainly grant that; but someone can be a good typist yet
write= complete gibberish, or be a poor/slow typist and _by necessity_
need to= consider each word that they use because typing an extra
sentence takes= them so long. If it takes you ten seconds to type out a
normal sentence= , revising becomes less of an issue than if typing out
the same sentence= takes a minute or a minute and a half.

Also, certainly in my case a= nd I doubt that I'm alone, a lot of my
time "coding" isn&#= 39;t spent doing the mechanics of "writing code", but
rather c= onsidering possible solutions to a problem, and what the
consequences wo= uld be of different choices. That part of the software
development proce= ss is essentially unaffected by how good one is as a
typist, and I expec= t that the effect would be even more pronounced for
someone using someth= ing like an ASR-33 and edlin, than a modern
computer and visual editor. = Again, the longer it takes to revise
something, the more it makes sense = to get it right on the first
attempt, even if that means some preparator= y work up-front.

Writing documentation is probably more an issue of = mindset and being
allowed the time, than it is a question of how good on= e is as a
typist.

--
=F0=9F=AA=B6=C2=A0Michael Kj=C3=B6rling= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =F0=9F=8F=A1= =C2=A0https://michael.kjorling.se
"Remember when, on= the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?"



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