From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18777 invoked from network); 20 May 2023 14:17:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 20 May 2023 14:17:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41957410A9; Sun, 21 May 2023 00:17:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com (mail-pl1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A5E441066 for ; Sun, 21 May 2023 00:17:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1ae85b71141so13873305ad.0 for ; Sat, 20 May 2023 07:17:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1684592228; x=1687184228; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yt0SBlUuFx4hYDErDC5aXnFz1dHVR/vstSfqpgur/1w=; b=ake9NgoquGX2fVIZXb04MMIDVqXB3bUYahz6K443t7tZq2Rrf6tM5y5gJLasHeQZCB 6Gy1JZ75Vy4WvygwtUgUEqllAzuLJnf2gxQ+GP2XCSZ7mUGbHgWkIMVoHVW1DPc8e0Nj q+/VoxAWzcje8v8CNdU3CK5jpjq8rcgF6e+YRvmB3FjCL36UwoguVpZA/yb/y1yrkqum adVNSle84Udm47uYrkc0yS6/jYymy2ijCMNwmqGfcNVhCGNiMtTy5KA/QKpp18MDoFiy 0zB+suwRrVgEK4nu3/KLcptbKH6zh3tHH/Q3c2hvy1a+dTNhhRahzeVNVpownmXb3pYa Bv0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1684592228; x=1687184228; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=yt0SBlUuFx4hYDErDC5aXnFz1dHVR/vstSfqpgur/1w=; b=bKKnbIu//XqwULLv4kG6kr8X4xXqXnzjLe/y3UK1pUUYnnHzkmxJFbR7h32XxpIxX8 /Ar9zAoq69bOXSD4psl5CTOC72rqaiujsOV9q3qUgZlI4zS9BMK2wAzxHaxAVjEG12LO prHFTFthVxZ2NgnOJn75YqGSWzwZpyFroSiRDSF65Xg5kogZTNMxGekKtT/yIaGQHs4B aFzFTAYs2UcR4DO1It+UTcmG2z5b8KqEvP84yBLDkv59pTIcgpBHAdLpZhK4vTP3fXfl xylgFBmOJ9Jarh0Vjol2lDGSI0cIZX7tC9ZYMDfN8FgJ1eDjfrCcEeZ4I3ZRXxCUJIeP xhLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDxgbN10SDUDQQhmOJU2nVosQUeZeRlR6Bn8jEue/lIP+/YuI1Bv QgLTpHYQoKtIPwFPMPPO4TCHzGiMTiTghqSAiw1qBbQ0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5RUzFw+U6vGQG8qoEJIKy1Lo4v2wVgc9eDh1x/Mw9LaoxpdrAU9mxaQ9Hb4yXC9cPsPQGjbIdFLWTnawtunqU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f2cc:b0:1ac:72ff:9853 with SMTP id h12-20020a170902f2cc00b001ac72ff9853mr5088864plc.30.1684592228013; Sat, 20 May 2023 07:17:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: KenUnix Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 10:16:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000579d0a05fc20b135" Message-ID-Hash: UOIMI75E37XPT6KSQ3JZBCAGLH7WWAUL X-Message-ID-Hash: UOIMI75E37XPT6KSQ3JZBCAGLH7WWAUL X-MailFrom: ken.unix.guy@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000579d0a05fc20b135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again, thanks for the help. It is appreciated. Ken On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:44=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > Matt - again, thank you. I just did a diff between the man pages from > the System III version on TUHS and the version I have from Kirk's CD set > [which was what we had a UCB]. The System III version looks different fr= om > the UCB man page (*e.g*., no plot() functions and a few other things). > So, I did a little checking last night and wrote a couple of emails to > some folks. The evidence I have found does seem to me that Dick Haight w= rote > the original bs(1) command. Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and > Mashey were the original PWB 1.0 core team, as it were. But ... looking > at my printed PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) man page. > However, we know that while PWB was never released officially outside of > the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' to MIT, CMU, and UCB > [probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system is clearly influenced by PW= B > 1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also thanks to folks like tjk an= d > Phil Karn]. The point is that many/most of the commands from PWB [with > SCCS being the most important], if not the full kernel itself, arrived in > those places. > > So a semi-educated >>WAG<< ... with the evidence being that > > 1. Haight's bs(1) was different from Ken's bas(1) which was in V7, > 2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD (disk4), > 3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell, > 4. I personally remember having it at UCB; > > Kirk's version at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it is > likely an either Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow. We know a Dale a= nd > their team in Columbus not only wrote their own enhancements, but they > also took the source from all over: Research, PWB, and some of the > universities. The CB/UNIX folks likely updated bs(1), and later, when > some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it back to Summit and in PWB 2, 3, a= nd > the like - that's where the updated version appeared. > > Clem > =E1=90=A7 > > On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29=E2=80=AFAM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > >> Here are raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped >> page: >> >> [1] - https://pastebin.com/EAjMyvSn >> [2] - https://pastebin.com/Dgh1g5q8 >> >> According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in the tree[3], these are some >> changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0: >> >> - Added ibase, obase >> - Added elif and using a single fi to end an if elif else chain >> - Added return for returning from function calls >> - Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs) >> - The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis >> - A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and >> artificial truncation of names to six characters. >> >> Unfortunately the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anythin= g >> of particular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0. >> >> [3] - >> https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DSysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.= 1 >> [4] - >> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/cbunix_man1_01.p= df >> (Page 32-39) >> >> - Matt G. >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole wrote: >> >> Matt. >> >> Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixing something >> up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some >> differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We di= d a >> lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from >> other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that >> sticks in my mind). I=E2=80=99ll have to try looking at the version we h= ad at UCB >> in a bit. >> >> As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool. >> >> Clem >> >> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >> >>> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated >>> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is >>> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.) >>> >>> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PW= B >>> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 w= ith >>> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation rig= ht >>> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, th= e >>> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) = pays >>> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0 >>> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB? >>> >>> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of >>> the SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also >>> omitted from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System= V 1 >>> and 2 manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this = was >>> likely made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, n= one >>> of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or othe= r >>> papers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to t= he >>> likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. E= ven >>> the BTL versions don't mention any papers. >>> >>> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in >>> the following versions: >>> >>> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1 >>> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III >>> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20) >>> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1) >>> - 1982 - PWB 5.0 >>> - 1983 - System V >>> - 1984 - System V Release 2 >>> >>> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various >>> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different >>> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could = be >>> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to pro= ve >>> anything. >>> >>> - Matt G. >>> ------- Original Message ------- >>> >>> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi. >>> >>> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter >>> that was on System-V? >>> >>> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Ken >>> >>> >>> -- >>> WWL =F0=9F=93=9A Okey Dokey OK Boss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual >> >> >> --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey OK Boss --000000000000579d0a05fc20b135 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again, thanks for the help. It is appreciated.
<= div>
Ken

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 9:44=E2=80=AFAM Cle= m Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">Matt - again, thank=C2=A0you.=C2=A0 I just did a diff between the man pag= es from the=C2=A0System III version on TUHS and the version I have from Kir= k's CD set [which was what we had a UCB].=C2=A0 The System III version = looks different from the UCB man page (e.g., no plot() functions and= a few other things).=C2=A0 =C2=A0So, I did a little checking last night an= d wrote a couple of emails to some folks.=C2=A0 The evidence I have found d= oes=C2=A0seem to me that=C2=A0Dick Haight=C2=A0wrote the original bs(1= ) command.=C2=A0 Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and Mashey were the o= riginal PWB 1.0 core team, as it were.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But ... looking at my pr= inted PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) man page.=C2=A0 How= ever, we know that while PWB was never released officially outside=C2=A0of = the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' to MIT, CMU, and U= CB [probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system is clearly influen= ced by PWB 1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also thanks to folks li= ke tjk and Phil Karn].=C2=A0 =C2=A0The point is that many/most of the comma= nds from PWB [with SCCS being the most important],=C2=A0if not the full ker= nel itself, arrived in those places.

So a = semi-educated >>WAG<< ...=C2=A0 with the evidence being that
  1. Haight's bs(1) was different from Ken's bas(1) = which was in V7,
  2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD (disk4),=C2=A0=C2= =A0
  3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell,=C2=A0
    4. <= li>I personally remember having it at UCB;
Kirk's version= at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it is likely=C2=A0an ei= ther Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We know a Dal= e= and their team in Columbus not only=C2=A0wrote their own enhancement= s, but they also took the=C2=A0source from all over: Research, PWB, and som= e of the universities.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The CB/UNIX folks likely updated bs(1),= and later, when some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it back to Summit and= in PWB 2, 3, and the like - that's where the updated version appeared.=

Clem
3D""=E1= =90=A7

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29=E2=80=AFAM segaloco via TUHS <= ;tuhs@tuhs.org> w= rote:
Here are = raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped page:
<= br>

According to a diff with the 3.0 manpa= ge in the tree[3], these are some changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0:

- Added ibase, obase
- Added elif and using a single = fi to end an if elif else chain
- Added return for returning from fun= ction calls
- Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pai= rs)
- The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis
- A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and a= rtificial truncation of names to six characters.

Unfortuna= tely the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything of par= ticular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0.


- Matt G.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

Matt.

Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixi= ng something up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were= some differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We= did a lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came f= rom other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think tha= t sticks in my mind). I=E2=80=99ll have to try looking at the version we = had at UCB in a bit.

As= for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.

Clem

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4= :19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
<= /div>
Th= e earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated November, 1= 979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is tagged CB-UNIX 2= .1.)

This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in= the commercial PWB releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that= is June, 1980 with 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately t= he situation right around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS= . That said, the preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 pag= e from 1979) pays no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way = the PWB 3.0 preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?

Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the= SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted f= rom the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2 ma= nuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was like= ly made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none = of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other pa= pers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to= the likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. = Even the BTL versions don't mention any papers.

In any= case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the fol= lowing versions:

- 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
- 1980 - PWB 3= .0/System III
- 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
- 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 = (unmodified from 2.1)
- 1982 - PWB 5.0
- 1983 - System V
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">= - 1984 - System V Release 2

Hope that helps. All of these = save the 4.x version should be in various places around. I don't rememb= er seeing anything outrageously different between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very w= ell may be that the 4.x manpage could be easily synthesized with a diff, bu= t I don't have a physical page to prove anything.

- Ma= tt G.
------- Original Message -------

On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi.

Was any docu= mentation ever done for the basic interpreter
that was on System-= V?

Things like allowed keywords or special keyword= s.

Thanks
Ken

<= br>--
WW= L =F0=9F=93=9A Okey Dokey OK Boss



--
Sen= t from a handheld expect more typos than usual



--
End of line
JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey OK Boss
<= div>

--000000000000579d0a05fc20b135--