From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14149 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2023 23:20:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Jul 2023 23:20:24 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67FB42A7F; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:20:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1371842A7A for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2023 09:20:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6686ef86110so881459b3a.2 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:20:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1689290409; x=1691882409; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=H9Xjxpo1dojJRozgRiID1QfAt8gxwFmvi292JUx55o8=; b=lKdHxrNxedl0l6VhS762q5e2Ax5tyfqeOvaNyA4jTz/2c0uZ9saUyTMI4SJkgwa7Gr /s/Chla7fbwLupB7Oo9H2+rwkEurOGMYenTk6w17QGOSgaYD6cj0DW9PJhFDmS6+fDxK nM2oDatQ81vEmDPnx3I4piXqPe04ETsjymKlYWfmwZAescWdYxA5azbXVGA/P94k++Px 9rFH8cSiXZH58gIXazKSVSp1glXAafCXOGBQVR4iPzoypAnEb4ox1JvLLLRWSQrjkiLg kYOCs+5ZVRftbElIfwuvjSi56zSB6CgHwLPBzQkffdJjQa38Yl0Mz9Uzfp90+eaHO0z/ SRCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1689290409; x=1691882409; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=H9Xjxpo1dojJRozgRiID1QfAt8gxwFmvi292JUx55o8=; b=Q9cvLLz6iIi08iXDZIsSEbhjfqB4Gi+31YQhMNur1a5Ni3QiEDNWR0ZyowghAR5nzG MS0YHt4m8BQVk41qE4QZQoacRCV98coOfg9zdaVIWibg9HG02rdcc1on1/Pv+9GOjV7+ W+Kn6Q33IL31Z4mgCA7W3aS8varAuw/A2AOJrXCftW9RFNlna8Duu47gB5Zl0iMN+F/e e8yim3vyCNs7UHewovRVLZWoRqBVQtGKTbi6ywSA5hJ+VSCcqvt6nd5Ad/mLOArRNQs0 eCZ2Sn15E2eXG4F49ChJWYBl1zdwA+cu2NEtYgwSb+zNlZkbv5WRdVCHwI0M6aaN//bQ n6vg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLb1ndkKGjlIFTGgM/EP43ykZL0Uj+lo3V6J/eXPXqg3vjdnMt9h Z+sIe3fdo/ED5rJyLtNxlkL58m50RnqZsuq+5ww= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlFT8c4vXN2qbT3ah6xKxTGgs7/0y0FgT/kQQn27kMOmSnTi3d9bL1VEjA/U5J6DCbq32H69Wm7H69dMuhuWSxg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:8f29:b0:133:b66:d790 with SMTP id b41-20020a056a208f2900b001330b66d790mr2488850pzk.61.1689290409202; Thu, 13 Jul 2023 16:20:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: KenUnix Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2023 19:19:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c35a8a06006692bc" Message-ID-Hash: UPAB5OSGKEOECTHI7IU644MAUQJZFRCP X-Message-ID-Hash: UPAB5OSGKEOECTHI7IU644MAUQJZFRCP X-MailFrom: ken.unix.guy@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Bell COBOL Environment? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000c35a8a06006692bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well if you guys use Linux you can always download open source "gnucobol" to experiment with. Ken On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:02=E2=80=AFPM Clem Cole wrote: > Yes. Thank you. > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 5:41 PM Kenneth Goodwin < > kennethgoodwin56@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Would your S database perhaps be Sybase?? >> >> It is that era of time. >> >> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole wrote: >> >>> Matt - I never had direct (user) experience with it. I saw a demo of >>> LPI's product at a trade show. It might have run on Ultrix, but if it = did, >>> I have no memory of it being in the test suite we used for releases. Al= so, >>> I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB >>> implementation or not. In those days, there were a number of them besi= des >>> Ingres - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which la= ter >>> was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may = have >>> been part of it. But there were bundled applications for different mar= kets >>> (running a dentist's office, car dealership, store, restaurant, *etc*..= ) >>> that ran on small UNIX boxes and used those DBs. >>> >>> What I remember was that only a few firms were offering Cobol for UNIX >>> (I think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR had them from previous OSses)= , >>> but the new generation of UNIX boxes did not - although 3rd parties lik= e >>> LPI sometimes offered them. Since it looks like AT&T is naming it/offe= ring >>> it with their product, that is another example of AT&T management missi= ng >>> the market. AT&T's management (Charlie Brown) was interested in going >>> after IBM and probably thought that Cobol was important if they sold to= IBM >>> shops. >>> >>> The problem was that except for some really large 'Big Blue' places tha= t >>> never bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street and some insurance >>> companies --* i.e.* early IBM computer users), I always thought that >>> writing *new code in Cobol or trying to port old code *was not done >>> that often because the firms that were switching from Mainframes to UNI= X >>> were generally tossing out their homegrown applications at the same tim= e >>> and replacing the entire suite with something like SAP, BAAN, or Oracle >>> APS that were networked, well integrated into things like PCs, used ASC= II, >>> *etc*. - *i.e*. using the replacement as the time to really upgrade >>> their entire back office and possibly moving away from Big Blue based - >>> which was not cost-effective (particularly for smaller firms). Anothe= r >>> point was the Big 8 accounting firms started offering services that use= d >>> the minis and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/Oracle APS). Finally, I may mis= s >>> remembering WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it was similar to today's Java in tha= t it >>> compiled into an interpreter. Plus, the impression I always had was th= at >>> it was not designed for practical large-scale use or performance. >>> >>> BTW: this is a different behavior from the scientific world. From mini >>> to supercomputers, in most cases, scientific users could not toss out t= heir >>> scientific computing tools and replace them with COTS alternatives ( >>> *i.e*., no firm like SAP, BAAN or Oracle providing "packaged" solutions >>> for a bank or business). But since most of the production apps being us= ed >>> came with sources or the few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys >>> *etc*..), it was possible to recompile and move things - so people did >>> or the IVSs did. Even today, as one of my former colleagues put it, an= y sr >>> computer system manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get fired = for >>> incompetence as it is still #1. >>> =E1=90=A7 >>> =E1=90=A7 >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>> >>>> Reading through [1], there are documents offered by AT&T for the "Leve= l >>>> II COBOL" system, which some further research indicates is a product f= rom >>>> Convergent (same folks as the UNIX PC.) There's also the LPI-COBOL wh= ich >>>> appears to be a Language Processor Inc. product. >>>> >>>> Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were >>>> there other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed >>>> locally that were in any use before this version? Or otherwise is the= re >>>> any other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the= 70s >>>> and early 80s, before the timeframe of this document? >>>> >>>> Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of >>>> either of these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX? I have no= goal >>>> for this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this >>>> point. Thanks all! >>>> >>>> - Matt G. >>>> >>>> [1] - >>>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf >>>> >>> -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > --=20 End of line JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Boss --000000000000c35a8a06006692bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well if you guys use Linux you can alw= ays download open source "gnucobol" to experiment with.

Ken


On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:02=E2=80= =AFPM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> = wrote:
Yes. Thank you.=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 5:41 PM Kenneth= Goodwin <kennethgoodwin56@gmail.com> wrote:
Would your S database perhaps= be Sybase??

It is that era of= time.

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023, 4:35 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Matt - I n= ever had direct (user) experience=C2=A0with it.=C2=A0 I saw a demo of LPI&#= 39;s product at a trade show.=C2=A0 It might have run on Ultrix, but if it = did, I have no memory of it being in the test suite we used for releases. A= lso, I do not remember if LPI-Colbol was attached to a specific DB implemen= tation or not.=C2=A0 In those days, there were a number of them besides Ing= res - Informix, IBM's DB2, and one that started with an S - which later= was sold to Microsoft to become SQL-server to name a few, and that may hav= e been part of it.=C2=A0 But there were bundled applications for different = markets (running a dentist's office, car dealership, store, restaurant,= etc..) that ran on small UNIX boxes and used those DBs.
What I remember was that only a few firms were offering Cobol for= UNIX (I think that IBM, DEC, DG, and maybe NCR had them from previous=C2= =A0OSses), but the new generation of UNIX boxes did not - although 3rd part= ies like LPI sometimes offered them.=C2=A0 Since it looks like AT&T is = naming it/offering it with their product, that is another example=C2=A0of A= T&T management missing the market.=C2=A0 AT&T's management (Cha= rlie Brown) was interested in going after IBM and probably thought that Cob= ol was important if they sold to IBM shops.

The proble= m was that except for some really large 'Big Blue' places that neve= r bothered tossing out Cobol (like Wall Street and some insurance companies= -- i.e. early IBM computer users), I always thought that writing new code in Cobol or trying to port old code was not done that = often because the firms that were switching from Mainframes to UNIX were ge= nerally tossing out their homegrown applications at the same time and repla= cing the entire suite with something like SAP, BAAN, or Oracle APS=C2=A0tha= t were networked, well integrated into things like PCs, used ASCII, etc<= /i>.=C2=A0- i.e. using the replacement as the time to really upgrade= their entire back office and possibly moving away from Big Blue based - wh= ich was not cost-effective (particularly for smaller firms).=C2=A0 =C2=A0An= other point was the Big 8 accounting firms started offering services that= =C2=A0used the minis and UNIX boxes with SAP/BAAN/Oracle APS).=C2=A0 Finall= y, I may miss remembering WRT to LPR-Cobol, but it was similar to today'= ;s Java in that it compiled into an interpreter.=C2=A0 Plus, the impression= I always had was that it was not designed for practical large-scale use or= performance.

BTW: this is a different behavior from t= he scientific world.=C2=A0 From mini to supercomputers, in most cases, scie= ntific users could not toss out their scientific=C2=A0computing tools and r= eplace them with COTS alternatives (i.e., no firm like SAP, BAAN or = Oracle providing "packaged" solutions for a bank or business). Bu= t since most of the=C2=A0production apps being used came with sources or th= e few that were commercial (Cadum, CATIA, Ansys etc..), it was possi= ble to recompile and move things - so people did or the IVSs did.=C2=A0 Eve= n today, as one of my former colleagues=C2=A0put it, any sr computer system= manager that ignores Fortran will eventually get fired for incompetence as= it is still=C2=A0#1.=C2=A0=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 3:02=E2=80=AFPM segaloco = via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Reading through [1], there are documents offered by AT= &T for the "Level II COBOL" system, which some further resear= ch indicates is a product from Convergent (same folks as the UNIX PC.)=C2= =A0 There's also the LPI-COBOL which appears to be a Language Processor= Inc. product.

Are these the earliest AT&T endorsed COBOL solutions for UNIX or were t= here other efforts either promoted by Bell or even perhaps developed locall= y that were in any use before this version?=C2=A0 Or otherwise is there any= other family of ubiquitous UNIX COBOL tools that was in use in the 70s and= early 80s, before the timeframe of this document?

Additionally is anyone aware of any surviving code or binaries of either of= these or other, earlier efforts at COBOL on UNIX?=C2=A0 I have no goal for= this information in mind yet, but just gathering details at this point.=C2= =A0 Thanks all!

- Matt G.

[1] - http://bitsav= ers.org/pdf/att/000-111_ATT_Documentation_Guide_Nov87.pdf
-- <= br>
Sent from a handheld expect m= ore typos than usual


--
End of line
JOB TERMINATED -->> Okey Dokey, OK Bos= s


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