From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28363 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2022 19:23:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Aug 2022 19:23:15 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4733040D22; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 05:23:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ed1-f45.google.com (mail-ed1-f45.google.com [209.85.208.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB00540139 for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 05:23:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ed1-f45.google.com with SMTP id t5so16319692edc.11 for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc; bh=8igGN7mOupIt+qg2hjOH7UhbJ84AdW4oBjO6v0gPrTA=; b=ZWgXD74qpGkpt5eNr2aaGjUbZ8HwMIXSzBSttClMV3jColD5Sx+j+UoXNL4HoVdmZJ 0bM9icaNorNGAUo8sVB3+ZJXuwUw1WRI/HJMjn8NgKPBjIXNGY0FayGZ6Q+oQ3nsZIQs xKtDuyqgt8keGNRD78BmS+oy0PDg5ydgAG608uAdQc+dW799gHuy0n5wzk13F2WMEhiR Xm/Rf+uMT9cVcR2X09CSw0d4S+kNuNJl2ZBmV/ksmokWC1/ueYpfQsDOQP0AGLlsUdT/ /xU4moOep8yaDp7Jri/pqDZ3cTd1i13uOBGY4vjZCy1KwltYxhxmuUxkdU/Ah14fjRhu vG1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc; bh=8igGN7mOupIt+qg2hjOH7UhbJ84AdW4oBjO6v0gPrTA=; b=L7z99IpF2jRcSh5kzSFRxHbhnGS9k40If9BXDCY4xy7dHFY5hbfOjz3VBeTlAdbJ9/ XLtvrmUTGimj0JiCx6gxZeMoS+B02dHHX6l9sJNBSBDFnGAQMRG4UBKLddu6FIhL3PAD ZC1IO3gV9b6eF2mkWztdbGONmndTfQoHyLVkER+Ok0+1njOz5t6/2kXXEt3BWmIwNMbA 2QYbIwVGIzyZONm25QFmiVEEbMD+RHCLEWMO+i0LItvl3GTPN1zLiWIDgV998ZIZDsYd 9YIX8Xz5CYUu1p+sucL+u+3ybf/L6Au5p4SXT3jsDP4PCRfCGMN7rh8YpIjAm2n2d0fw 2N1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo1cSy0AMZE872aKNf20Mq5ahjMYsk5IbCZsX6bBwidktpEoZFaZ 83sBvVnCtpuS+tJy0o6Rf6JM/3ufMudL7Lu9PUc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR5B8PFB190Rpxz2S9g9l2dCZQX4CUfZA1zrZgLOSiCiyuwEGtQ7pKfX+lVVeHYzvb8rd0xAdY8RFCks54LnPZc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1d4e:b0:43d:9822:b4d1 with SMTP id dz14-20020a0564021d4e00b0043d9822b4d1mr23288096edb.212.1660072924017; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:22:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220809174232.A882C18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20220809184910.GC21168@mcvoy.com> <092e2eda-9b02-39a9-9de3-8343cd337d78@earthlink.net> <20220809190028.GD21168@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20220809190028.GD21168@mcvoy.com> From: Marshall Conover Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2022 15:21:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: FFG5DE4E3K3IQFEJR7CPRSI5KWQZ52ZX X-Message-ID-Hash: FFG5DE4E3K3IQFEJR7CPRSI5KWQZ52ZX X-MailFrom: marzhall.o@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Tom Teixeira , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: SNOBOL and RATSNO List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > I've always believed that pic was so well designed because it took a day to get the print out (back then), so you had to have a language where you could see what it was doing. > I'll confess: I was never very good at bench checking batch programs, but only had at most a handful of assignments in college: generally cycles were cheap on time-sharing systems and I quickly adapted to interactive debugging. Along these lines, if I'm understanding correctly, my hunch would be that part of the precision being discussed was born out of necessity. When you can't debug interactively, you're forced to be precise with your changes, influencing how you think. On the flip side, when interactive development is an option, there's an easy route to take - and so that's what ends up informing those developmer's thought patterns. I think it's possible that if you were to force a new generation to only be able to iterate once a day, you may end up with a new generation with that precision. Perhaps material for a fun experiment for the teachers on the list. Cheers, Marshall On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 3:01 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 02:54:08PM -0400, Tom Teixeira wrote: > > On 8/9/22 2:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > >On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 01:42:32PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > >> > From: Rob Pike > > >> > > >> > I still marvel at the productivity and precision of his generatio > > >> > > >>We noticed the same thing happening in the IETF, as the number of people > > >>working on networking went up. The explanation is really quite simple, once > > >>you think about it a bit. > > >> > > >>If you have a very small group, it is quite possible to have a very high > > >>level. (Not if it's selected randomly, of course; there has to be some > > >>sorting function.) However, as the group gets much larger, it is > > >>_necessarily_ much more 'average' in the skill/etc level of its members. > > >I used to complain about this at Sun and was dryly told "We get it, > > >Larry, you are yeast. You need flour to make bread." > > > > > >And as time went on, I found that the smart people tended to find each > > >other. So it was fine. > > > > > >It is more fun when it is a highly curated group of smart people. Made > > >me work hard to keep up. > > > > Put another way, "If you're always the smartest person in the room, you're > > spending your time in the wrong rooms." > > I was usually the dumbest one in the room, I found the right rooms :-) > > I personally like being "dumb", the other people just make you want to > work harder to reach their level. Back when I used to play pool pretty > seriously, I always tried to play people better than me. You get lazy > if you are the best. > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat