Not Unix in particular. At least in Germany it is already the 16th, and my BSD calendar notifies that "first programming error is encountered at the U. S. Census Bureau". As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident involving a moth and a Mark II. All (hm!) according to COMPUTERWORLD January 18th, 1999 (i was young!), with assistance of the Computer Museum of Boston. Like McCartney said in the legendary 1999 concert at the Cavern club, the first after his wonderful wife Linda died, "See, with this band, if we don't get it right ... we start again!". Thank you. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1135 bytes --] On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in > 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first > compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is > also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident > involving a moth and a Mark II. > Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of bug being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already existed then. Brief unexplained faults on telephony (and before that telegraphy) lines were "bugs on the line" back in the 19C. Vibroplex telegraph keys, first sold in 1905, had a picture of a beetle on the top of the key, and were notorious for creating bugs when inexperienced operators used them. (Vibroplex is still in business, still selling its continuous-operation telegraph keys, which ditt as long as you hold the paddle to the right.) John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU BALIN SON OF FUNDIN LORD OF KHAZAD-DUM [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2355 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1265 bytes --] On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:55 PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> > wrote: > >> As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in >> 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first >> compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is >> also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident >> involving a moth and a Mark II. >> > > Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of bug > being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already > existed then. Brief unexplained faults on telephony (and before that > telegraphy) lines were "bugs on the line" back in the 19C. Vibroplex > telegraph keys, first sold in 1905, had a picture of a beetle on the top of > the key, and were notorious for creating bugs when inexperienced operators > used them. (Vibroplex is still in business, still selling its > continuous-operation telegraph keys, which ditt as long as you hold the > paddle to the right.) > Indeed, the Vibroplex key is called a "bug". I suspect this has something to do with its appearance more than anything else, though (it kinda sorta looks like, er, a bug). - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2282 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1720 bytes --] On Tuesday, 15 June 2021 at 18:54:47 -0400, John Cowan wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: >> As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in >> 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first >> compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is >> also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident >> involving a moth and a Mark II. > > Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of bug > being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already > existed then. Correct. The Oxford English Dictionary has two overlapping definitions (along with dozens of others). In each case I've shown the earliest attestation: 5. Originally U.S. a. A defect or fault in a machine (esp. an electrical or electronic one), or in a process, etc. 1875 Operator 15 Aug. 5/1 The biggest âbugâ yet has been discovered in the U.S. Hotel Electric Annunciator. b. Computing. An error or other cause of malfunction in a computer program, piece of software, etc. 1952 Rev. Electronic Digital Computers (Amer. Inst. Electr. Engineers) 18/2 The week we spent in getting the last bug out of our instruction program was an investment we hated to have to make. It's interesting that they differentiate between the two. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1698 bytes --] There are citations from Edison in the 19th century using the word, and a quote somewhere by Maurice Wilkes about the stairwell moment when he realized much of the rest of his life would be spent finding programming errors. That moth was not the first bug, nor the first "bug", it was the first recorded "actual bug". -rob On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 9:46 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:55 PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> >> wrote: >> >>> As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in >>> 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first >>> compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is >>> also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident >>> involving a moth and a Mark II. >>> >> >> Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of >> bug being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already >> existed then. Brief unexplained faults on telephony (and before that >> telegraphy) lines were "bugs on the line" back in the 19C. Vibroplex >> telegraph keys, first sold in 1905, had a picture of a beetle on the top of >> the key, and were notorious for creating bugs when inexperienced operators >> used them. (Vibroplex is still in business, still selling its >> continuous-operation telegraph keys, which ditt as long as you hold the >> paddle to the right.) >> > > Indeed, the Vibroplex key is called a "bug". I suspect this has something > to do with its appearance more than anything else, though (it kinda sorta > looks like, er, a bug). > > - Dan C. > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3056 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2406 bytes --] https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-history/did-you-know-edison-coined-the-term-bug Like Edison, she (Grace Hopper) was recalling the word’s older origins in the Welsh bwg, the Scottish bogill or bogle, the German bögge, and the Middle English bugge: the hobgoblins of pre-modern life, resurrected in the 19th century as, to paraphrase philosopher Gilbert Ryle, ghosts in the machine. Electrical circuits can have "bad connections" so I do wonder if Edison coined this word based on "ghost like" faults that magically appear and disappear! -- Bakul > On Jun 15, 2021, at 8:48 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: > > There are citations from Edison in the 19th century using the word, and a quote somewhere by Maurice Wilkes about the stairwell moment when he realized much of the rest of his life would be spent finding programming errors. > > That moth was not the first bug, nor the first "bug", it was the first recorded "actual bug". > > -rob > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 9:46 AM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com <mailto:crossd@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:55 PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org <mailto:cowan@ccil.org>> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu <mailto:steffen@sdaoden.eu>> wrote: > As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in > 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first > compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is > also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident > involving a moth and a Mark II. > > Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of bug being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already existed then. Brief unexplained faults on telephony (and before that telegraphy) lines were "bugs on the line" back in the 19C. Vibroplex telegraph keys, first sold in 1905, had a picture of a beetle on the top of the key, and were notorious for creating bugs when inexperienced operators used them. (Vibroplex is still in business, still selling its continuous-operation telegraph keys, which ditt as long as you hold the paddle to the right.) > > Indeed, the Vibroplex key is called a "bug". I suspect this has something to do with its appearance more than anything else, though (it kinda sorta looks like, er, a bug). > > - Dan C. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7321 bytes --]
Sounds very "Deus ex machina" like. Although it's hard to staple a ghost to your notebook. -----Original Message----- From: Bakul Shah To: Rob Pike Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Sent: 6/16/21 12:13 PM Subject: Re: [TUHS] 70th anniversary of (official) programming errors https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-history/did-you-know-edison -coined-the-term-bug <https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-history/did-you-know-ediso n-coined-the-term-bug> Like Edison, she (Grace Hopper) was recalling the word’s older origins in the Welsh bwg, the Scottish bogill or bogle, the German bögge, and the Middle English bugge: the hobgoblins of pre-modern life, resurrected in the 19th century as, to paraphrase philosopher Gilbert Ryle, ghosts in the machine. Electrical circuits can have "bad connections" so I do wonder if Edison coined this word based on "ghost like" faults that magically appear and disappear! -- Bakul On Jun 15, 2021, at 8:48 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: There are citations from Edison in the 19th century using the word, and a quote somewhere by Maurice Wilkes about the stairwell moment when he realized much of the rest of his life would be spent finding programming errors. That moth was not the first bug, nor the first "bug", it was the first recorded "actual bug". -rob On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 9:46 AM Dan Cross < crossd@gmail.com <mailto:crossd@gmail.com> > wrote: On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:55 PM John Cowan < cowan@ccil.org <mailto:cowan@ccil.org> > wrote: On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 6:25 PM Steffen Nurpmeso < steffen@sdaoden.eu <mailto:steffen@sdaoden.eu> > wrote: As not being hard-to-the-core i may have missed it, but also in 1951, in March, the wonderful Grace Hopper "conceives the first compiler, called A-O and later released as Math-Matic. Hopper is also credited with coining the term 'bug' following an incident involving a moth and a Mark II. Yes, but wrongly. The label next to the moth is "First actual case of bug being found", and the word "actual" shows that the slang term already existed then. Brief unexplained faults on telephony (and before that telegraphy) lines were "bugs on the line" back in the 19C. Vibroplex telegraph keys, first sold in 1905, had a picture of a beetle on the top of the key, and were notorious for creating bugs when inexperienced operators used them. (Vibroplex is still in business, still selling its continuous-operation telegraph keys, which ditt as long as you hold the paddle to the right.) Indeed, the Vibroplex key is called a "bug". I suspect this has something to do with its appearance more than anything else, though (it kinda sorta looks like, er, a bug). - Dan C.
Bakul Shah wrote in <C964FEBE-BBE3-4A87-9F2F-E5C277053D85@iitbombay.org>: |> On Jun 15, 2021, at 8:48 PM, Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote: |> There are citations from Edison in the 19th century using the word, \ |> and a quote somewhere by Maurice Wilkes about the stairwell moment \ |> when he realized much of the rest of his life would be spent finding \ |> programming errors. |> |> That moth was not the first bug, nor the first "bug", it was the \ |> first recorded "actual bug". |> |> -rob |https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-history/did-you-know-edison\ |-coined-the-term-bug Interesting, thanks! 1947, then. As you know well the BSD people dropped their calendar instead of fixing it. |Like Edison, she (Grace Hopper) was recalling the word’s older origins \ |in the Welsh bwg, the Scottish bogill or bogle, the German bögge, and \ (Only to clarify that „bögge“ is not a German word to the best of my knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, there is »Bodden« for example (a small bay with a very small aperture to the sea), but no?) |the Middle English bugge: the hobgoblins of pre-modern life, resurrected \ |in the 19th century as, to paraphrase philosopher Gilbert Ryle, ghosts \ |in the machine. That not me. If me, then Schopenhauer. I also do not like the Brainfuck language, for example. You know, if you have to go somewhere ... In some Bhuddhistic monasteries, for example, monks sit cross-legged in front of walls for hours each day. If you really want, that will help, if you have learned the lesson. Working in a kitchen garden is also advisable, you can reap. |Electrical circuits can have "bad connections" so I do wonder if Edison \ |coined this word based on "ghost like" faults that magically appear \ |and disappear! I seem to recall now that the bug story was clarified in the past already? Now it is for me anyway, thank you all for that. I was looking at BSD calendar mail and had a go. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --] On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:57 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > (Only to clarify that „bögge“ is not a German word to the best of my > knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, > And so it is: it's Low Saxon, and also exists in the compound form "böggel-mann", plainly cognate to British English "bogeyman", American English "boogeyman". Or borrowed one way or the other: there is so much borrowing and convergence in the Germanic languages around the North and Baltic Seas that if we did not know the older varieties of these languages we would never be able to work out just how they are related. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Unless it was by accident that I had offended someone, I never apologized. --Quentin Crisp [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1951 bytes --]
John Cowan wrote in <CAD2gp_So8VQE4ApVSAHmNgQOKNGbaBbaizovxweu2+DJnx-NKQ@mail.gmail.com>: |On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:57 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> \ |wrote: |> (Only to clarify that „bögge“ is not a German word to the best of my |> knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, | |And so it is: it's Low Saxon, and also exists in the compound form |"böggel-mann", plainly cognate to British English "bogeyman", American |English "boogeyman". Or borrowed one way or the other: there is so much |borrowing and convergence in the Germanic languages around the North and |Baltic Seas that if we did not know the older varieties of these languages |we would never be able to work out just how they are related. This surely leads to nowhere without going into detail, and that is hard in respect to the dramatical losses that happened on archives etc., due to whatever reason. You may confuse personal opinion. That happens. To me it sounds rather like a modification of "Bogen", which can mean quite some different things itself, from a "bend" (so the profession of a wood-bender comes to mind at a glance, "böge" is also the conjugation of "bending" "er böge" thus "he would bend"), also the weapon "bow", so they could have been happy producers or unhappy consumers of such things as well. Of course a "Bogen" is also needed to play a Violin but putting some strings while a thunderstorm approaches, hm, so i stay clear from that, i "make a Bogen around it". Given how many right politicians have that name, i let it be good for now. Cheerio, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20210618210047.5uogF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>: |John Cowan wrote in | <CAD2gp_So8VQE4ApVSAHmNgQOKNGbaBbaizovxweu2+DJnx-NKQ@mail.gmail.com>: ||On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:57 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> \ ||wrote: ||> (Only to clarify that „bögge“ is not a German word to the best of my ||> knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, || ||And so it is: it's Low Saxon, and also exists in the compound form ||"böggel-mann", plainly cognate to British English "bogeyman", American ||English "boogeyman". Or borrowed one way or the other: there is so much ||borrowing and convergence in the Germanic languages around the North and ||Baltic Seas that if we did not know the older varieties of these languages ||we would never be able to work out just how they are related. | |This surely leads to nowhere without going into detail, and that |is hard in respect to the dramatical losses that happened on |archives etc., due to whatever reason. You may confuse personal |opinion. That happens. Hrhrm. Also it was shortly before the museum was torn into pieces. Who knows what the journalist asked? Mary Brandel?? Ferry Cross The Mersey, so to say. When i try to interpret the actual "sound" of that timeline[1], then "..Hopper is also credited.." sounds like an addition that crossed one's mind, out of the actual timeline topic, and so it *seems to me* as if the collocutor could not be blamed. Says my gut. [1] https://books.google.de/books?id=Y-SUlMt64SoC&pg=PT70&lpg=PT70&dq=census+bureau+bug+1951&source=bl&ots=hulQqmNIT8&sig=ACfU3U2Pdy2HzVAVdzMNq2LUBOqDEpkJLQ&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip8MDx0ZrxAhVF3aQKHWB0AUcQ6AEwEnoECBEQAw#v=onepage&q=census%20bureau%20bug%201951&f=false A nice weekend i wish from Germany, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1883 bytes --] On Friday, 18 June 2021 at 16:19:37 -0400, John Cowan wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:57 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> wrote: > >> (Only to clarify that ???bögge??? is not a German word to the best of my >> knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, > > And so it is: it's Low Saxon, and also exists in the compound form > "böggel-mann", plainly cognate to British English "bogeyman", American > English "boogeyman". Well, there are ways to check these things, especially since Steffen came up with alternatives. As they say, âWas weià Duden?â. From https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Boeoegg: wohl gekürzt aus älter schweizerisch Böggelmann, Bölimann = Schreckgestalt, Kobold, Herkunft ungeklärt; vgl. als ähnliche Bezeichnung englisch bog(e)y (man) = Schreckgespenst, litauisch bužỹs = (ausgestopfte) Schreckgestalt In other words, a Swiss German word with a derivation similar to what you expected. I hadn't expected that (the Swiss connection). The OED entry is way out of date (1887) and has nothing useful to say except: Found in literature only recently; old people vouched (1887) for its use in the nursery as early as 1825, but only as proper name (sense 1). Possibly a southern nursery form of bogle , boggle , and boggard , or going back like them to a simpler form which, as mentioned under bog n.1 and bogle n., may be a variant of bugge , bug n.1 âterror, bugbear, scarecrowâ. But in the absence of evidence, positive statements concerning its relation to these words cannot be made. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
Steffen Nurpmeso [18.06.2021 23:00]:
> To me it sounds rather like a modification of "Bogen", which can
> mean quite some different things itself, from a "bend" (so the
> profession of a wood-bender comes to mind at a glance, "böge" is
> also the conjugation of "bending" "er böge" thus "he would bend")
In Norway, "bøg" is an older, derogative description of a homosexual
male. Fits in with the German meaning "bent".
--
Hilsen Harald
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 760 bytes --] Den lör 19 juni 2021 kl 15:36 skrev Harald Arnesen <skogtun@gmail.com>: > Steffen Nurpmeso [18.06.2021 23:00]: > > > To me it sounds rather like a modification of "Bogen", which can > > mean quite some different things itself, from a "bend" (so the > > profession of a wood-bender comes to mind at a glance, "böge" is > > also the conjugation of "bending" "er böge" thus "he would bend") > > In Norway, "bøg" is an older, derogative description of a homosexual > male. Fits in with the German meaning "bent". > "Bög" means a homosexual male in Sweden also. It used to be derogatory but has been adopted by the gay community itself, so it's really just descriptive now (although I'm pretty sure kids still use it as an insult). Niklas [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1224 bytes --]
Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in <20210619075735.GQ23809@eureka.lemis.com>: |On Friday, 18 June 2021 at 16:19:37 -0400, John Cowan wrote: |> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:57 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu> \ |> wrote: |> |>> (Only to clarify that ???bögge??? is not a German word to the best \ (Your mail was LATIN1 yet the data was not it seems.) |>> of my |>> knowledge. I was looking, as it sounded so »northern«, |> |> And so it is: it's Low Saxon, and also exists in the compound form |> "böggel-mann", plainly cognate to British English "bogeyman", American |> English "boogeyman". | |Well, there are ways to check these things, especially since Steffen |came up with alternatives. As they say, â␦␦Was weiÃ␦ Duden?â␦␦. | |From https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Boeoegg: | | wohl gekürzt aus älter schweizerisch Böggelmann, Bölimann = | Schreckgestalt, Kobold, Herkunft ungeklärt; vgl. als ähnliche | Bezeichnung englisch bog(e)y (man) = Schreckgespenst, litauisch | bužỹs = (ausgestopfte) Schreckgestalt | |In other words, a Swiss German word with a derivation similar to what Well, informative. I am not a Germanist. But *i* do not *think* that a Swiss (Alemannian?) word "Böögge" (that i never have heard, a Carnival Goblin mask, see [1-4], where [2-4] are "Larve"nmasken, referring to "Gespenst" aka "Ghost") is related to the family name "Bögge" in mostly northern Germany. Schwaben/Alemannen on the one hand, and Sachsen, Friesen, Westfalen, Franken and who knows which tribes live "normally" where the name distributes[5]. At [5] one can see a very small piece of land at the bottom, near Lake Constance, where the name distributes. Maybe someone was thrilled after visiting that land during Carnival and decided to move there -- haha! --, i do not know. You know, Alemannen Carnival, they sing things like "kill the cat!" or something, and have cat fur on their belt! Listen, Hackers!! ...yeah, twenty years ago there was an uprising all across Germany after Alemannian Carnival was shortly seen in the most widely watched TV news, iirc, where such a masked one was jumping around and singing this. Searching the net i find mostly nothing but [6], and there you can read Miau-Zunft Freiburg 1. Die Website www.miau-zunft.de ist nicht mehr erreichbar. Die Zunft hat bundesweit Proteste ausgelöst, da sie gewagt hatte, im Internet auf ihre Katzenfell-Hästradition hinzuweisen 2. Zum BZ-Artikel vom 22.12.2001: Katzenjammer bei der Miau-Zunft 3. Auch unser Gästebuch wurde vom Katzenjammer erfasst. Wie soll dies weitergehen? Sagen Sie uns doch Ihre Meinung 4. Beim Rosenmontagsumzug am 11.2.2002 war die Miau-Zunft nicht feige und trotz aller Bedrohungen tapfer dabei. Aber nur im Käfig-Wagen. Welch ein Katzenjammer! That is not that, but nonetheless, part of the nationwide protests ("bundesweit[e] Proteste") that seems to have been. Cancel culture, everywhere. You need a lobby though, fur animals usually not have; nor have cows, pigs, chicken, it is your fault you have to read this vegetarian pamphlet. Coming back to "Böge" [7] aka "Boege" [5] as a name, together about 1100 entries twenty years ago (data from 2002). For [7] there are some more in the Alemannian / Swabian area. I do not know. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Narrenzunft_Tettnang_Hopfennarr_Narrentreffen_Me%C3%9Fkirch_2006.jpg [2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Tsch%C3%A4gg%C3%A4ttu-Larven_%28Masken%29.jpg [3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larve_(Maske)#/media/Datei:Picswiss_BS-50-23.jpg [4] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larve_(Maske)#/media/Datei:Biss.jpg [5] http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/Boege_(Familienname) [6] https://freiburg-schwarzwald.de/littenweiler/narren.htm [7] http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/B%C3%B6ge_(Familienname) |you expected. I hadn't expected that (the Swiss connection). The OED |entry is way out of date (1887) and has nothing useful to say except: | | Found in literature only recently; old people vouched (1887) for its | use in the nursery as early as 1825, but only as proper name (sense | 1). Possibly a southern nursery form of bogle , boggle , and boggard | , or going back like them to a simpler form which, as mentioned | under bog n.1 and bogle n., may be a variant of bugge , bug n.1 | â␦␦terror, bugbear, scarecrowâ␦␦. But in the absence of evidence, | positive statements concerning its relation to these words cannot be | made. --End of <20210619075735.GQ23809@eureka.lemis.com> Harald Arnesen wrote in <2419313d-a951-ba2d-48a4-6b0bf225f2eb@gmail.com>: |Steffen Nurpmeso [18.06.2021 23:00]: | |> To me it sounds rather like a modification of "Bogen", which can |> mean quite some different things itself, from a "bend" (so the |> profession of a wood-bender comes to mind at a glance, "böge" is |> also the conjugation of "bending" "er böge" thus "he would bend") | |In Norway, "bøg" is an older, derogative description of a homosexual |male. Fits in with the German meaning "bent". Hmmm. Well, given the zappiness and horniness that often can be found in this corner, the losses we had due to the golden Californian gang bangs, let me only think of the wonderful Bruce Chatwin here, there it maybe was a rape, it is terrible!, but given the sheer amount of popping and other drugs in this culture i am better silent know. |Hilsen Harald --End of <2419313d-a951-ba2d-48a4-6b0bf225f2eb@gmail.com> Niklas Karlsson wrote in <CAK6BEgd4yehsSXxpSPCwaR=V=Pa4jrr94tyVPpR7vy6_aUZ_dw@mail.gmail.com>: |Den lör 19 juni 2021 kl 15:36 skrev Harald Arnesen <skogtun@gmail.com>: ... |> In Norway, "bøg" is an older, derogative description of a homosexual |> male. Fits in with the German meaning "bent". | |"Bög" means a homosexual male in Sweden also. It used to be derogatory |but has been adopted by the gay community itself, so it's really just |descriptive now (although I'm pretty sure kids still use it as an insult). So *i* could *imagine* Norwegians pronounce their "bøg" and Svedes pronounce their "Bög" maybe a bit like "Bock", short and tough. Bo-ck, not Booo-ck (english: not buuuu-ck, o!=u), or so. The German "Bock" is a "Ram", the "Böckchen" its minimization (often not advisable!), and ramification of a Ram is often seen as desirable (wham! bam! thank you ma'am!, though that false jobsite, in this case). Rams they have in Friesland aka Low Saxony. Oh, the wonderful "Heidschnucke" ("German heath"), yes, [s]he lives there, a "northern short-tailed [Heh! sic] sheep". These horns can "bocken" aka "buck"ing aka is in the season. |Niklas --End of <CAK6BEgd4yehsSXxpSPCwaR=V=Pa4jrr94tyVPpR7vy6_aUZ_dw@mail.gmail\ .com> Ah nice weekend everybody. Ciao from Germany (albeit Hesse[n]), --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 665 bytes --] Den lör 19 juni 2021 kl 17:48 skrev Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>: > So *i* could *imagine* Norwegians pronounce their "bøg" and Svedes > pronounce their "Bög" maybe a bit like "Bock", short and tough. > Bo-ck, not Booo-ck (english: not buuuu-ck, o!=u), or so. > The German "Bock" is a "Ram", the "Böckchen" its minimization > (often not advisable!), and ramification of a Ram is often seen as > desirable (wham! bam! thank you ma'am!, though that false jobsite, > in this case). > No, not really. It's a long "ö" and the g is a g, not a k/ck. (Not as sure of the Norwegian term, but if I had to guess I'd say the same there. Niklas [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1134 bytes --]
Niklas Karlsson wrote in <CAK6BEgd1rRUqMh_k69tPZ6Av=e3DHJ7jd_Zn_GKpzqh0M=7K-A@mail.gmail.com>: |Den lör 19 juni 2021 kl 17:48 skrev Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>: | |> So *i* could *imagine* Norwegians pronounce their "bøg" and Svedes |> pronounce their "Bög" maybe a bit like "Bock", short and tough. |> Bo-ck, not Booo-ck (english: not buuuu-ck, o!=u), or so. |> The German "Bock" is a "Ram", the "Böckchen" its minimization |> (often not advisable!), and ramification of a Ram is often seen as |> desirable (wham! bam! thank you ma'am!, though that false jobsite, |> in this case). | |No, not really. It's a long "ö" and the g is a g, not a k/ck. (Not as sure |of the Norwegian term, |but if I had to guess I'd say the same there. I should have known that. I had a tremendous Sverige experience in my childhood (despite the football world championship 1958 of course, bad that not so good). It is even online at [1], a Friese (Friesian) going; starting at second ~60 there is Italian, Japanese, French, and then Swedish around second 77. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPoiL4UF__0 Thank you. Ciao from Germany, and a nice Sunday i wish. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt)
Steffen Nurpmeso [19.06.2021 17:48]:
> So *i* could *imagine* Norwegians pronounce their "bøg" and Svedes
> pronounce their "Bög" maybe a bit like "Bock", short and tough.
No, it's "bøøg", pronounced something like "girl" in English.
--
Hilsen Harald
Folks, can we move this discussion elsewhere? It's gotten way off topic.
Thanks,
Arnold
Harald Arnesen <skogtun@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steffen Nurpmeso [19.06.2021 17:48]:
>
> > So *i* could *imagine* Norwegians pronounce their "bøg" and Svedes
> > pronounce their "Bög" maybe a bit like "Bock", short and tough.
>
> No, it's "bøøg", pronounced something like "girl" in English.
> --
> Hilsen Harald