From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id cd7f4345 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:41:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4E11894FC4; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:41:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A5394FBA; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:40:55 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="NapTqyfg"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 863EE94FB9; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:40:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it1-f177.google.com (mail-it1-f177.google.com [209.85.166.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEB9F94FCB for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2019 00:40:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it1-f177.google.com with SMTP id a6so2955550itl.4 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:40:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B6AArdIp0O7L3nziDCvIzO9CSjzkTWn8QDRCRrX1MKg=; b=NapTqyfgLXzJJPnkL+LRsWCx6UBt2JLuRe5KRuOQqDAtkZ8A8+4TwKpRu7g/I80lWW Xm4i5JU8JXrXPIVsRAJGAACWU1Xh0HE5XTeTh0AvoRhVZ0PT+gqkrhI+HHRB6ynRzXpz LvnYwIkGpO+MrSltVlFwDmYPh94FLjEywQtYM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B6AArdIp0O7L3nziDCvIzO9CSjzkTWn8QDRCRrX1MKg=; b=jmXdvPPDULi4KTLJVvG1B6sWks0LtKQhtrxMhxdKXPiD4l/YOnbIKOmSZUanNwxWkn nId+l2F45rzv4sY0O6HOXm8fzzpp161K66R/NIMEhTncK4ZAdPulpjV0sh9N95U3KmPj muPkVccXyTZxf4/nnqDMLPYyYGveIT2u//AymUUYs952BK5am0jQz34l02ZmjprJHwS/ GXi46Ma0VO5mnnEVOlxNlehUrHzGIJwHkIwRNdfQss3oPGVthGtcwBJpeLLFL9ZoFGPP Q9R2I60Uo2yxifKhubAaHfIHS5JIuiZC7oUPmZskdrI8mlDJJ05VC94479gM0oQO0ONU 1D/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukdK/I3us0lnQjVrjr+foyHqnW/bVeJbDA8t8/wNisd6QxA/vo4R CkQ7sWGCglnrt5m/fVg2/QcIC98ATDMyZqr9Ta/nyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7mXab169y0XNzKWHA6uL2YTPRKmkK71Jn1XkRjTvK5oN6mEPLxPnKBlncCg1vyephD6h1WtBdZEPqQ6vZSWBM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:f42:: with SMTP id h63mr5313591jad.133.1547649652925; Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:40:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 15:40:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ccc305057f944366" Subject: Re: [TUHS] The John Snow's of the UNIX family X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ccc305057f944366 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ve heard and personally seen a lot of technical arrogance and incompetence out of the Masshole area. Was DEC inflicted? In =E2=80=9CShowstopper=E2=80=9D Cutler fled to the west coast to get away fro= m this kind of thing. On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George Michaelson > wrote: > >> In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platform is tightly tied to >> the availability of the platform at university. >> >> If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs >> for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then >> for those students, it became the logical choice. >> >> If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry, >> they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and >> Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers >> inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who >> recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these >> students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the >> upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and then get >> cheap kids to run it" >> >> TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education >> systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility, >> almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed >> the beast. >> > > Interesting. When I was in high school in central Pennsylvania and > begging, borrowing (and yeah a little stealing) computer time from Penn > State systems, there was a CS professor who'd made his bones building > something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulation Program. I can't remember the > fellow's name; something "Roberts" maybe. He was known for being somewhat > acerbic (he'd call students "stupid" in class, was known to be nasty on > USENET, etc) and he wasn't a healthy man. He died of a heart attack when = I > was in my late teens. Anyway.... > > What's notable about that, to me, was that he wrote UREP for DG/UX and wa= s > known to be fond of Data General machines. This let him talk to the > university's mainframe, which was run by the computer center, ran VM, and > was the major compute engine on campus at the time outside of specially > purchased machines supporting research. There was a Cray somewhere on > campus, for example, but that was purchased out of research funds and > wasn't generally accessible. It also let Unix machines participate on > BITNET, which was a big deal locally at the time (probably because of the > close association with mainframes). But this was well before the AViiON > series; probably around the time of the Eagle. So maybe just after the > "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's history. > > Anyway, the point is that they did have a footprint in the academic > market. I suspect their lack of success had more to do with them as a > company and their foibles in the market than anything else. Like many of > the "Route 128" minicomputer companies of the early 70s, I get the > impression that they ran themselves into the ground chasing the > minicomputer market and missing the shift to microprocessors, workstation= s > and PCs. By the time they could try and turn things around with the stora= ge > kit, they were a bit player in the server market. The storage thing only > set them apart and kept them afloat long enough to get bought out. > > - Dan C. > > (PS: I worked for a startup in NYC in the very late 1990s and early 2000; > one of those "dot com" companies [all the stories are true, though in my > defense I had no idea just how much drama was happening around me at the > time]. We picked up some kind of engineering director guy via some merger > with another dot com startup-y sort of thing based in Boston and that guy > had come from Data General. Of course, he wanted to move everything to > Boston/Cambridge and thought us New Yorkers were a bunch of dullards. It > stuck out to me because I don't think I've ever worked with an emptier > suit, though I've seen a few that gave him a run for his money.... If DG > management was anything like him, no wonder they died an inglorious death= .) > --000000000000ccc305057f944366 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=E2=80=99ve heard and personally seen a lot of tech= nical arrogance and incompetence out of the Masshole area.=C2=A0 Was DEC in= flicted?=C2=A0 In =E2=80=9CShowstopper=E2=80=9D Cutler fled to the west coa= st to get away from this kind of thing.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:26 PM Dan Cross <= crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:08 PM George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> w= rote:
In my opinion, the popularity of a UNIX platform is ti= ghtly tied to
the availability of the platform at university.

If DG was available to tinker on, to run ROFF, to write small programs
for other reasons, to introspect and familiarise yourself with, Then
for those students, it became the logical choice.

If they ignored the tertiary education market, sold into industry,
they could have established a huge loyal fanbase in E.G. Finance and
Insurance. Or in the decision support systems in Oil. Or shoe makers
inventory control. But if you don't have a cohort of students who
recognize your brand, your flavour of UNIX, and you then face these
students flexing muscles at purchase time, Instead of "lets buy the upgrade option from DG" you get "why don't we buy Sun, and th= en get
cheap kids to run it"

TL;DR DG did not have significant presence in the tertiary education
systems I played in (York, Leeds, UCL, UQ) and by my visibility,
almost any tertiary education facility I have seen. They didn't feed the beast.

Interesting. When I was in high school in centr= al Pennsylvania and begging, borrowing (and yeah a little stealing) compute= r time from Penn State systems, there was a CS professor who'd made his= bones building something called UREP: Unix RSCS Emulation Program. I can&#= 39;t remember the fellow's name; something "Roberts" maybe. H= e was known for being somewhat acerbic (he'd call students "stupid= " in class, was known to be nasty on USENET, etc) and he wasn't a = healthy man. He died of a heart attack when I was in my late teens. Anyway.= ...

What's notable about that, to me, was that= he wrote UREP for DG/UX and was known to be fond of Data General machines.= This let him talk to the university's mainframe, which was run by the = computer center, ran VM, and was the major compute engine on campus at the = time outside of specially purchased machines supporting research. There was= a Cray somewhere on campus, for example, but that was purchased out of res= earch funds and wasn't generally accessible. It also let Unix machines = participate on BITNET, which was a big deal locally at the time (probably b= ecause of the close association with mainframes). But this was well before = the AViiON series; probably around the time of the Eagle. So maybe just aft= er the "Soul of a New Machine" era in DG's history.

Anyway, the point is that they did have a footprint in the = academic market. I suspect their lack of success had more to do with them a= s a company and their foibles in the market than anything else. Like many o= f the "Route 128" minicomputer companies of the early 70s, I get = the impression that they ran themselves into the ground chasing the minicom= puter market and missing the shift to microprocessors, workstations and PCs= . By the time they could try and turn things around with the storage kit, t= hey were a bit player in the server market. The storage thing only set them= apart and kept them afloat long enough to get bought out.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.

(PS:= I worked for a startup in NYC in the very late 1990s and early 2000; one o= f those "dot com" companies [all the stories are true, though in = my defense I had no idea just how much drama was happening around me at the= time]. We picked up some kind of engineering director guy via some merger = with another dot com startup-y sort of thing based in Boston and that guy h= ad come from Data General. Of course, he wanted to move everything to Bosto= n/Cambridge and thought us New Yorkers were a bunch of dullards. It stuck o= ut to me because I don't think I've ever worked with an emptier sui= t, though I've seen a few that gave him a run for his money.... If DG m= anagement was anything like him, no wonder they died an inglorious death.)<= /div>
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