From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24226 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2022 16:56:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jul 2022 16:56:46 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240E440CC0; Mon, 4 Jul 2022 02:56:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com (mail-pj1-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4F0540CB9 for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2022 02:56:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id ju17so2039812pjb.3 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2022 09:56:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wKNtCGPFWQoBXdBWJtyerpL7K8/Nq9VAtnN3aRS74xo=; b=LXg6xl6YmGS43FqXD99dNnPakdM5CJZgs0pFHyZBdvjQ0Vo7tuxfvnZ9oFY5s7NDjC be4iWnitgE1UAXrpLYdmqH6KHubw8c7pVsq+gx7spYgAyqeM4X5Jb8YULqUXCHXc3rn/ YdrroaxUpdnxrlSpqSibbcDRN0UtQoMtSaoIo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wKNtCGPFWQoBXdBWJtyerpL7K8/Nq9VAtnN3aRS74xo=; b=KKPibL1f/KW8Um/ai/kKXJoqkqbPB2yZUda0CgwvzDaypJjKpet8LjFksDACN0mS/O nuAoNOH7zFc/IETquLiZzBOvrHgEzpElWMoQCmTjW3ki1jpex8rqLmDolHWAg7l4RSGD KCqCClnCRzs1ocotkYYzogrluvw+X+Hn8yl35AEb/FcQttnQxNZvdf5E1B43DD3b6pCG NLJWVMKq8rVV/DlMtrdghzAP8smQXEqJ41v4FsduKeKpUxtrfz95X6yUBrwz1qAOepuH JHeGW8vY4S2yUUz6dmFbN3L/VxBSe/4MTSAx9y58wcUj05d+O7VUS7umRPApp5KFIk8p bwTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora86KZfdASYQzs5ndNxrG66WnCKxQz40+9ilaMrrBxx9mndWoYf1 iavcBuwzx7ytzKvATVIw+/UN3wF0XqN7klqqqfCDng== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uqC3ZWwzKACqzNeXsTDXOGayqVtRts/HbUOQiR/3kOpM3AJGhLpyI2rpDC3n5iRqmyjsyIAz6th1EzbPbRmpc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4b8f:b0:1ec:e852:22c7 with SMTP id lr15-20020a17090b4b8f00b001ece85222c7mr29540393pjb.38.1656867315208; Sun, 03 Jul 2022 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220702210244.GU11191@mcvoy.com> <20220703022743.GA15738@mcvoy.com> <20220703143906.GD18597@mcvoy.com> <5E49BE69-8869-473A-B3F5-6744566700F0@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 09:55:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c36c3305e2e97bb4" Message-ID-Hash: RBXQNFMT5AIBIOBL33JHC2Q3UCWINKYT X-Message-ID-Hash: RBXQNFMT5AIBIOBL33JHC2Q3UCWINKYT X-MailFrom: kevin.bowling@kev009.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Bakul Shah , Marc Donner , TUHS , steve jenkin X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Thoughts on Licenses List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000c36c3305e2e97bb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:27 AM Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > >> You may be thinking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation tha= t >> was syscall compatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memor= y >> protection as it was designed to run on 8088. > > Minux and specifically M1 was and always has been, a uK. And yes, M1 doe= s > not need an MMU - since it was designed to run on an 8088. IIRC this was > Linus' original objection when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wyse > 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach his students about V7 > without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with V6. > > What runs on the Intel Management Engine > > It's called the Intelligent Platform Management Interface > > - *a.k.a.* IPMI > IPMI is an entirely different subsystem from the ME. ME runs on one of at least two superfluous x86 cores within the CPU die of intel CPUs for a while that can run Intel and vendor supervisors. When this blew up in Intel=E2=80=99s face several years ago Minix 3 was the late= st incarnation. https://github.com/hardenedlinux/firmware-anatomy/blob/master/hack_ME/me_in= fo.md IPMI is a sideband and could be anything including embedded Linux on a dedicated ARM SoC which is common in large scale installations. is MINIX 3, ... with NetBSD userland. > > Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is correct (remembe= r > for whom I work). > Maybe you are talking about something else. Minix 3 (Andy=E2=80=99s last O= S) does indeed match this description, uK with NetBSD user. MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related > That's because M3 added the MMU support that M1 lacked. But there is > nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version fro= m > Andy's team. What IPMI has as an underlying uK is heavily hacked and is = a > 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically providing V7 interfaces to > some special programs. > > It made little sense to recreate something for the platform engine, and > Minux was picked because it was smaller than any of the *BSDs and was not > GPL'ed so Intel IP was still protected. > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > --000000000000c36c3305e2e97bb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 9:27 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
=


On Sun, Jul 3, 2022 at 11:30= AM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
You may be th= inking of MINIX 1. It was a from-scratch implementation that was syscall co= mpatible with V7 but IIRC it didn't have any sort of memory protection = as it was designed to run on 8088.
Minux and specificall= y M1 was and always has been, a uK.=C2=A0 And yes, M1 does not need an MMU = - since it was designed to run on an 8088.=C2=A0 IIRC this was Linus'= =C2=A0original=C2=A0objection when he wanted to run on his 386-based PC (Wy= se 32:16 box, IIRC). The key was Andy wanted to teach his=C2=A0students abo= ut V7 without running afoul of the AT&T license as Lions had with V6.

What runs on the Intel Management Eng= ine
It's called= the=C2=A0Intelligent Platform Management Interface - a.k.a. IPMI

IPMI is= an entirely different subsystem from the ME.

ME runs on one of at least two superfluous x86 cores = within the CPU die of intel CPUs for a while that can run Intel and vendor = supervisors.=C2=A0 When this blew up in Intel=E2=80=99s face several years = ago Minix 3 was the latest incarnation. =C2=A0


=C2=A0is MINIX 3, ...=C2=A0with NetBSD userland.
Actually, if you want to pick nits, neither statement is cor= rect (remember for whom I work).=C2=A0

Maybe you are talking = about something else.=C2=A0 Minix 3 (Andy=E2=80=99s last OS) does indeed ma= tch this description, uK with NetBSD user.

=C2=A0MINIX 1 and MINIX 3 are related=C2= =A0
That's because M3 = added the MMU support that M1 lacked.=C2=A0=C2=A0 But ther= e is nothing in M3 that IPMI is using other than it is the current version = from Andy's team.=C2=A0 What IPMI has as an underlying=C2=A0uK is heavi= ly hacked and is a 'derivative work' - the local uk is basically pr= oviding V7 interfaces to some special programs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<= /div>

It made little sense to recrea= te something for the platform engine, and Minux was picked because it was s= maller than any of the *BSDs and was not GPL'ed so Intel IP was still p= rotected.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
3D""=E1= =90=A7
3D""<= font size=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255)">=E1=90=A7
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