From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 05b212d4 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:40:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 802039BD78; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:40:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BDC79BD0F; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:40:29 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="fsode8YJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 427779BD0F; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:40:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f51.google.com (mail-io1-f51.google.com [209.85.166.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C52009BCA8 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:40:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f51.google.com with SMTP id i11so7641594ioi.12 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 14:40:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yaamO5w4WOYS+PKux8VGs3thZUE4zX6OyUPv+Mobm2k=; b=fsode8YJ/cr2usSvMYIKeM9L6WjyaHFqDYTeUpTUGOTEqlBX70XiSSHLVyZDrsQTcR o9kXWT5XJYyKb8cgQpube3luUcg21/ZEWR2OeCUKN26NVXPFmgY6l+JP0oEJG0lhhXXT lSRCAUI4q6yJREEobRTHc7R47LqcfJWsXMnHM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yaamO5w4WOYS+PKux8VGs3thZUE4zX6OyUPv+Mobm2k=; b=BJ0ztbFvam3cQmcKIGeCdSv6+2Z3qzl8MRNU2C4TeZkT6BUdcroVe/Vx4OYHLrIaLu NTgFA5xtT/jG0ctPO8i+g62CjiQXNHRZ5hpQt1aGeuxA9PmECCT66UikxgfeqEFTwvQY reScbsKyOVLO3NesPLQMkvkkgDvPqo5zuc6Nsde4hvE0dVspHhv57qi6jaVVi6Wa7vFJ nAI11AUkbtFCqqlqr1twz5PAymQHyXE1la44aMpNu6tMhtsuqr+eYAa3HNPeP8oeP+0x mX6iH3zG5kRdx7ynqlF4RAz93JDuUo05Y9ZA7PBIlt6gnKcJLsnYfDcMhP4+nUjeu/tN 8YHg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUnommYUj0+ZLMoAvZHotbv+Yl29OMS9AgpiOf8l+RlPdW12Twu 9EzvEWtimipXmc/P84R1N6ZWlejl9ARMIvdcfpVlZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz/ZqylK2SumPNkOstnTaJB2SxYIIq8pawfZeL5mq3lLswD9T0rtGFiI3dzNZgSd7X2/Gq6ECcwocnz2Zx1e9I= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b7d5:: with SMTP id h204mr10912447iof.238.1578868825959; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001122225.00CMPc9S085970@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> In-Reply-To: <202001122225.00CMPc9S085970@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:40:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Doug McIlroy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Tech Sq elevator (Was: screen editors) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 3:26 PM Doug McIlroy wrote: > > >> After scrolling through the command list, I wondered how > >> long it was and asked to have it counted. Easy, I thought, > >> just pass it to a wc-like program. But "just pass it" and > >> "wc-like" were not givens as they are in Unix culture. > >> It took several minutes for the gurus to do it--without > >> leaving emacs, if I remember right. > > > This is kind of illustrative of the '60s acid trip that > > perpetuates in programming "Everything's a string maaaaan". > > The output is seen as truth because the representation is > > for some reason too hard to get at or too hard to cascade > > through the system. > > How did strings get into the discussion? Warner showed how > emacs could be expected to do the job--and more efficiently > than the Unix way, at that: (list-length (command-list-fn)). > The surprise was that this wasn't readily available. Bakul provided an explanation for the pipeline, the funny cue to me that I interpreted from Warner's message is just that emacs had the ability to do it in a coherent way but did not and ISTM that the way you make a mess of that is by losing the intent of the representation. I am regularly surprised by how surprising type systems are to computing professionals. The language and environment may help or dissuade you from doing that, wasn't really relevant to my original point. Larry tells me the message is somehow inflammatory, it wasn't intended that way I was just trying to make light of the situation and provide people a launch pad to think for themselves about some fundamentals because it's worthwhile to do so occasionally. > Back then, in fact, you couldn't ask sh for its command > list. help|wc couldn't be done because help wasn't there. > > Emacs had a different problem. It had a universal internal > interface--lists rather than strings--yet did not have > a way to cause this particular list to "cascade through > the system". (print(command-list-fn)) was provided, while > (command-list-fn) was hidden. The only response I can come up with to these two points eventually boils down to a philosophical riddle: does the work matter or does how the work is done matter? Both, the situation dictates. I execute innumerable shell pipelines per day and perhaps craft a dozen ephemerals ones. Regards, Kevin