From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 7ef385ce for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 13:42:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BCA169D52C; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:42:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22339D51A; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:41:32 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="EtsD+ieF"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D334E9D51A; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:41:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-il1-f172.google.com (mail-il1-f172.google.com [209.85.166.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A43969D518 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:41:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-il1-f172.google.com with SMTP id f70so17316854ill.6 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 05:41:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qW00aJf3TCovHH8SuIFx4bQ166IzTJ1HimhUVK9CfOo=; b=EtsD+ieFpYBvp5lSjpULT3wyUK35hOO3vH+wIjNKAGW4BUQ7Q6Dx4A2B0SjsB8/Ghb By1HDiPr9N/K9XAZLPJePbkiAHmDub0Fy72qWf4zBLEMc43Gk6H+ZM3knF6xPLIhCoxt J3/P3Idhm7atBylw63Ucrc3iqXReA17c4MuHs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qW00aJf3TCovHH8SuIFx4bQ166IzTJ1HimhUVK9CfOo=; b=o8i6NikL23cNApKTQmojcTe82IZ6ZshCEjIz8SqL6eRN3vlZKjGabgUa5WNU6kcN3i AvCDL51152ewc3/JXd4/woKXQQXCEBAbteaE/RIO6/z2t+hPQIZ1UJ5DPGME88X+HqIu h7D23nFWSie/fveUSJAvqrWHjEJ1gjBp22xBqV+IWWp2ZjUadGVubEc95FrqI2mgktqZ bUMIKQ+blyPLo76NfNiEHXnrO7BC54RCnUUrfV/BNxwG9EA1UOierd3VtMk0Bx3q3+Jb kUYypDfR9hPK/tppabxqfpYGUz7suDNHdvrCxtfKTmdfftK30sBZwWLM01oKqJD5i4fz Mkvg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUhrtxOWFiFrp1mrv8YI7ZcvLY3CiW+GG9PQHdKw5pmb1Z5cgCc qZ+QwIy3EVnkXIDQpKyikM9SRCrHYsyN5O6elcCvAe9y X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzZCeRhorzexOA/acTqMUcP25YXHpMIj4YfOczJgJRlPKY3vfhKl2JyrKVZOOegUbs1HgsNhixciT4FWSUn22Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:692:: with SMTP id o18mr19764547ils.238.1582033288911; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 05:41:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25E62EB5E090E7CB.c5cb28db-f209-4d75-8ad6-a165cb810b47@mail.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <25E62EB5E090E7CB.c5cb28db-f209-4d75-8ad6-a165cb810b47@mail.outlook.com> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:41:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jason Stevens Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003572d1059ed9d4af" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000003572d1059ed9d4af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it=E2=80=99s not particularly hard to find a Mach system today. The = fruit company makes computers and mobile phones with it. Steve Jobs enamor for Avie Tevanian is well chronicled in the common biographies. The problem with Mach is their ukernel implementation was pretty shit while the ideas were sound. MacOS runs like an old dog to this day on anything remotely system% intensive (like say a network server). IBM abandoned the idea of any ukernel with AIX3 for RISC/6000.. Charlie may be able to add commentary on that but it was almost certainly for performance which was paramount in the workstation wars and RS6K had an front runner opening. The idea of small TCBs and IPC has really been perfected in L4 kernels; seL4 in particular is one of the most interesting pieces of systems software today. Fruit company uses a different older L4 for their security coprocessors and had a Darwin port for L4 at one point called Darbat. Regards, Kevin On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jason Stevens < jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: > I was more interested in the "Mach" kernel itself as I've only recently > been able to get it to boot up from sources for the i386. > > I hadn't looked into the other aos/vrm stuff. But that is interesting, a > 4.3 with the vfs. > > In hind sight maybe Mach wasn't so bad with its messaging and threads, > along with multiprocessor support.. Its what we all were eventually > desiring anyway. > > One thing is for sure, multiple GHz machines sure make it a lot easier to > use, these days. > > I'd gotten lucky with Mach as the platform code is really modular and eve= n > a monkey like me banging on a keyboard of an existing Mach 386 machine wa= s > able to get the latter source running under the older platform code. Sha= me > Mach 3 seems to have broken all the fun stuff or requires real effort and > understanding... Things I lack. > > But I was really surprised about the coprocessor cards.. I wonder what > other interesting things are in there. Or how hard it is to hammer 386 B= SD > into aos "sort of a 4.3 Tahoe ++" > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Kevin Bowling > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 9:02 p.m. > *To:* Jason Stevens > *Cc:* Charles H Sauer; TUHS > *Subject:* Re: [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions > > Thanks for clarifying. I will reassert that the three pieces of systems > software I mentioned (VRM, AIX2, AOS) are not Mach in any way I know > about. AOS may have some generic cross pollination, it=E2=80=99d be what= ever was > going on at CSRG also for non-RT (4.2-4.3?) BSD platforms at the time of > checkout. Kirk or Warner may be able to elucidate if provided the date an= d > some reference material from AOS or I can do some original research. > > Most distinctly and important: VRM is not in any way Mach, it was its ow= n > bespoke microkernel. The microkernel would have been the most =E2=80=9CM= ach=E2=80=9D part > of Mach research, so this makes the VRM concept even more unique and > enjoyable to me being so different and ambitious. Therefore I don=E2=80= =99t think > it is particularly correct to say any of VRM, AIX, AOS software is Mach > without its ukernel. > > What you linked is a very late port (late 1990s) of a hybrid of 4.3 and > 4.4 BSD (late meaning in the time when Net, Free, and Open had long taken > over from CSRG BSD). I will quote a Twitter communication I had with Mio= d > Vallat in the past: > =E2=80=9CAlso it's not really 4.4. It's a mix of 4.3BSD-Reno plus the 4.4= VFS > layer and new system calls. It still uses the 4.3, pre-Mach, VM system, > hence no mmap(2).=E2=80=9D > > What Miod means by =E2=80=9Cpre-Mach=E2=80=9D above: 4.4 BSD adopted the = kernel memory > subsystem of Mach into the existing BSD monolithic kernel. Not any of the > ukernel or things like Mach IPC. > > Not trying to be overly pedantic with you just trying to keep the records > straight since these machines are one of my keen interests and I welcome > new information on them. > > Regards, > Kevin > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:30 AM Jason Stevens < > jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: > >> Oh sure! >> >> I'm having to use my phone... >> >> It's the combined sources here: >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/IBM/RT/rt_bsd44/ >> >> doc mk >> jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4$ pwd >> /home/jsteve/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4 >> >> jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk/conf$ cat vers* >> 69 >> 5 >> 1 >> X >> >> So 5.1x edit 69 >> >> jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk$ more CHANGELOG >> HISTORY >> 17-May-88 David Golub (dbg) at Carnegie-Mellon University >> XM21: >> David Black completely rewrote the accurate timing code >> (which is now implemented on all machines) and the priority >> and scheduling algorithms. The system now correctly reports >> cpu_usage per thread. >> >> >> >> The all file has this before i386 was added. >> >> So it's an older v2 than what is on the CSRG CD, but not as old as the >> VAX '86 stuff. >> >> It seems to be March 11 1989, although that could be when this was eithe= r >> archived or ported.. I guess they didn't exactly sync to a public kerne= l >> tree all that often. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM +0800, "Kevin Bowling" < >> kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99m asking exactly where the Mach is in the linked archive. VRM,= AIX or >>> AOS? Can you support this with a reference for my own documentation >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 1:02 AM Jason Stevens < >>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >>> >>>> It's the CMU micro kernel. The hybrid "2.6" lived on in NeXTSTEP, and >>>> OPENSTEP, with various upgrades to bring it up to OS X. >>>> >>>> The RT as I understand it was a research machine, hence the BSD ports, >>>> and Mach port. >>>> >>>> What is interesting the more I dig around is that there was ROMP >>>> coprocoessor cards, and an OS/2 and DOS monitor program to let you boo= t BSD >>>> on the card. Peripheral IO was done on the x86 side. >>>> >>>> If RT's are rare, I can't imagine how impossible it would be to get on= e >>>> of those cards! >>>> >>>> The BSD assembler and linker source is in the archives too, no doubt >>>> it'll help someone make a RT emulator. >>>> >>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM +0800, "Kevin Bowling" < >>>> kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can you clarify what is Mach in this archive if I have a gap in my >>>>> knowledge? I didn=E2=80=99t know the VRM had any direct relationship = to Mach >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:43 PM Jason Stevens < >>>>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Interesting stuff! And another version of Mach is buried in there. >>>>>> >>>>>> So the 4 csrg cd set may have updates to the romp support as it's an >>>>>> older version of the 5.1 kernel from 89... Not that think there is = any >>>>>> Mach romp users. >>>>>> >>>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* TUHS on behalf of Charles H >>>>>> Sauer >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 5:51 a.m. >>>>>> *To:* TUHS >>>>>> *Subject:* [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions >>>>>> >>>>>> The Bitsavers' RSS feed ( >>>>>> http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/bitsavers-bits.xml) >>>>>> seemed to me to be dominated by RT, AIX, AOS (BSD for RT), etc. stuf= f in >>>>>> the last week or so. I've only sampled a few items, but discovered a= few >>>>>> things that I should have known (or knew and forgot?) while I was at= IBM. >>>>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/rt/ -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 >>>>>> e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://te= chnologists.com/sauer/ >>>>>> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter >>>>>> : >>>>>> CharlesHSauer >>>>>> >>>>> > --0000000000003572d1059ed9d4af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, it=E2=80=99s not particularly hard to find a M= ach system today.=C2=A0 The fruit company makes computers and mobile phones= with it.=C2=A0 Steve Jobs enamor for Avie Tevanian is well chronicled in t= he common biographies.

The problem with Mach is their ukernel implementation was pretty shit = while the ideas were sound.=C2=A0 MacOS runs like an old dog to this day on= anything remotely system% intensive (like say a network server).

IBM abandoned the idea of any uke= rnel with AIX3 for RISC/6000.. Charlie may be able to add commentary on tha= t but it was almost certainly for performance which was paramount in the wo= rkstation wars and RS6K had an front runner opening.

The idea of small TCBs and IPC has really been= perfected in L4 kernels; seL4 in particular is one of the most interesting= pieces of systems software today.=C2=A0 Fruit company uses a different old= er L4 for their security coprocessors and had a Darwin port for L4 at one p= oint called Darbat.

Rega= rds,
Kevin

=
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 6:29 AM Jason= Stevens <jsteve@super= globalmegacorp.com> wrote:
<= div>
I was more interested in the "Mach" ke= rnel itself as I've only recently been able to get it to boot up from s= ources for the i386.=C2=A0

I hadn't looked into the other aos/vrm stuff.=C2=A0 But th= at is interesting, a 4.3 with the vfs.=C2=A0

In hind sight maybe Mach wasn't so bad with its messagi= ng and threads, along with multiprocessor support.. Its what we all were ev= entually desiring anyway.=C2=A0

One thing is for sure, multiple GHz machines sure m= ake it a lot easier to use, these days.=C2=A0

I'd gotten lucky with Mach as the= platform code is really modular and even a monkey like me banging on a key= board of an existing Mach 386 machine was able to get the latter source run= ning under the older platform code.=C2=A0 Shame Mach 3 seems to have broken= all the fun stuff or requires real effort and understanding... Things I la= ck.=C2=A0

But I was really surprised about the coprocessor cards..=C2=A0 I wonder w= hat other interesting things are in there.=C2=A0 Or how hard it is to hamme= r 386 BSD into aos "sort of a 4.3 Tahoe ++"=C2=A0

From: Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com>Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 9:02 p.m.
T= o: Jason Stevens
Cc: Charles H Sauer; TUHS
= Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. r= ecent additions

Th= anks for clarifying.=C2=A0 I will reassert that the three pieces of systems= software I mentioned (VRM, AIX2, AOS) are not Mach in any way I know about= .=C2=A0 AOS may have some generic cross pollination, it=E2=80=99d be whatev= er was going on at CSRG also for non-RT (4.2-4.3?) BSD platforms at the tim= e of checkout. Kirk or Warner may be able to elucidate if provided the date= and some reference material from AOS or I can do some original research.

Most distinctly and= important: =C2=A0VRM is not in any way Mach, it was its own bespoke microk= ernel.=C2=A0 The microkernel would have been the most =E2=80=9CMach=E2=80= =9D part of Mach research, so this makes the VRM concept even more unique a= nd enjoyable to me being so different and ambitious.=C2=A0 Therefore I don= =E2=80=99t think it is particularly correct to say any of VRM, AIX, AOS sof= tware is Mach without its ukernel.

What you linked is a very late port (late 1990s) of a hybrid of = 4.3 and 4.4 BSD (late meaning in the time when Net, Free, and Open had long= taken over from CSRG BSD).=C2=A0 I will quote a Twitter communication I ha= d with Miod Vallat in the past:
=E2=80=9CAlso = it's not really 4.4. It's a mix of 4.3BSD-Reno plus the 4.4 VFS lay= er and new system calls. It still uses the 4.3, pre-Mach, VM system, hence = no mmap(2).=E2=80=9D

Wha= t Miod means by =E2=80=9Cpre-Mach=E2=80=9D above: 4.4 BSD adopted the kerne= l memory subsystem of Mach into the existing BSD monolithic kernel. Not any= of the ukernel or things like Mach IPC.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Not trying to be overly pedantic with you just trying to k= eep the records straight since these machines are one of my keen interests = and I welcome new information on them.=C2=A0

Regards,
Kevin
<= br>
On Tue,= Feb 18, 2020 at 5:30 AM Jason Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> = wrote:
= Oh sure!=C2=A0

I'm having to use my phone...=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
It's the combined sources here:
<= div style=3D"color:rgb(33,33,33);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-ali= gn:left" dir=3D"auto">http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/I= BM/RT/rt_bsd44/

doc =C2=A0mk
jsteve@localhost:= ~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4$ pwd
/home/jsteve/rt_bsd4/sr= c/sys/.local/mach2.4

jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk/conf$ cat ver= s*
69
5
1
X

So 5.1x edit 69

jsteve@localhost:~/r= t_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk$ more CHANGELOG
HISTORY
=C2=A017-May-88 David Golub (dbg) at Carnegie-Mellon University
=
=C2=A0XM21:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 David Black compl= etely rewrote the accurate timing code
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (which is now implemented on all m= achines) and the priority
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and scheduling algorithms. The system now corr= ectly reports
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cpu_usage per thread.



The all file has this before i386 was added.=C2= =A0

So it's an older v2 than what is on the= CSRG CD, but not as old as the VAX '86 stuff.=C2=A0

It seems to be March 11 1989, although that could be when this wa= s either archived or ported..=C2=A0 I guess they didn't exactly sync to= a public kernel tree all that often.=C2=A0


<= br>
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM +0800, "Kev= in Bowling" <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
I=E2=80=99m asking exactly where the Mach is in the = linked archive. VRM, AIX or AOS? Can you support this with a reference for = my own documentation

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 1:02 AM Jason Steven= s <j= steve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
It's the CMU micro kernel.=C2=A0 = The hybrid "2.6" lived on in NeXTSTEP, and OPENSTEP, with various= upgrades to bring it up to OS X.=C2=A0

The RT as I understand it was a research machine,= hence the BSD ports, and Mach port.=C2=A0

=
What is interesting the more I dig around is t= hat there was ROMP coprocoessor cards, and an OS/2 and DOS monitor program = to let you boot BSD on the card.=C2=A0 Peripheral IO was done on the x86 si= de.=C2=A0

If R= T's are rare, I can't imagine how impossible it would be to get one= of those cards!=C2=A0

The BSD assembler and linker source is in the archives too, no do= ubt it'll help someone make a RT emulator.=C2=A0

Get Outlook for Android


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM +0800, "Ke= vin Bowling" <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
Can you clarify what is Mach in this archive if I ha= ve a gap in my knowledge? I didn=E2=80=99t know the VRM had any direct rela= tionship to Mach

R= egards,
Kevin

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:43 PM Ja= son Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
Interesting stuff!=C2=A0 An= d another version of Mach is buried in there.=C2=A0

So the 4 csrg cd set may have updates= to the romp support as it's an older version of the 5.1 kernel from 89= ...=C2=A0 Not that think there is any Mach romp users.=C2=A0

<= div id=3D"m_-5954376907663256185m_8376118454524103139m_3787324825967450097m= _1506884524483653083m_-9183807882949694226divRplyFwdMsg">From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Charles H Sauer <= sauer@technolo= gists.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 5:5= 1 a.m.
To: TUHS
Subject:=C2=A0[TUHS= ] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions

The Bi= tsavers' RSS feed=20 (http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/bitsavers-bits= .xml) seemed=20 to me to be dominated by RT, AIX, AOS (BSD for RT), etc. stuff in the=20 last week or so. I've only sampled a few items, but discovered a few=20 things that I should have known (or knew and forgot?) while I was at IBM. http:= //www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/rt/ --=20 voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.co= m/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

--0000000000003572d1059ed9d4af--