From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5f56379d for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:44:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3B0939C20B; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:44:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52D3E9C1FF; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:44:06 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="PIaICUws"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A4C099C1FF; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:44:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f42.google.com (mail-io1-f42.google.com [209.85.166.42]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21B159C14A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:44:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f42.google.com with SMTP id i11so4558377ioi.12 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:44:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hq4Tn6+BkI5sBpuR8TEdn5FKlmi7+pTbBCxu/ESq4Xk=; b=PIaICUwsHG1HSutMWDJRqBzsRYVkCYvWtCzL9vS5htVaU6g4GxYMkKd8xwqz8CXpy6 s9qx9qnup45imJG8S2MNRDy+nl2GmgR1Gb5FcROyCERvbm95HOVHR8EoGDxRN83PxXDD g498uZhmh8XugH7HzjAbvAia5gbrNPpVZeJDE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Hq4Tn6+BkI5sBpuR8TEdn5FKlmi7+pTbBCxu/ESq4Xk=; b=JAY52rMfmUV1M7iZ4uuIGjL28ke0M9szwlqtImo4C1d7w8jCKGX3hknO/d3yYLrGwu PdAre1utjp8vvq70zxgerl/E/DcfMT70vDeb/A+qCnRb13pfiKrDSXsIMing/D8HFbsx pnNuHhbjMS67kGLAds9+t7AVrSq93mMf33iFDnGDljpDoshOLV6MeZwU2ICUhO5h3Vc/ BCAdbg/229uDK/JboydbOQKUfCMv6UBaAgxrDcpcZmtqwWv5z2el38HM8V00hXG0gSTN kw/c3v8v8K6vaeiOIqQDta3Lbdv67TdAgAP3om+es7bmYtYoJB8l3rgbtnDy6o7Njsu0 czdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVGHjzHLzG3/7ODKWrO86oXp/WH4k6TrAa0W67KpX1LVIk28TnI xfpm3uDyYHz0tyUXZ8HtBeUhRAKgiJsrcWrLZKv0mw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx2IJfR79KWpBucuSajY8oWAYQ4oRb2/8ySOaKPlXCXcDS5MAZ0Bjx0fNi2k2aHD/+rDx6OswfW8P6GPSRGFHw= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b74a:: with SMTP id h71mr4659564iof.212.1579646643092; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:43:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] Apollo Domain/OS X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 3:39 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:03 PM Chris Hanson = wrote: >> >> My understanding is that there=E2=80=99s a direct line from MULTICS to P= rime to Apollo, > > Yes in some ways... > > >> >> in that Apollo was founded by former Prime folks who took their philosop= hy with them. > > Actually not quite. MIT/Multics to Honeywell to Pr1me to Apollo (to Belm= ont/Stellar) Bill P and his former TA from MIT (Mike Spourer) actually wan= ted to break a little when they did Apollo. The whole ideas was too risky = for Honeywell, so he created Pr1me. Apollo was too risky for Pr1me so he= created Apollo. Stellar was too risky for Apollo so he created Belmont - = a.k.a. Stellar. > > [By the way, I spoke to Bill over the holidays. He's a still the same]. I respect someone that is willing to put their time (and money?) where their mouth is like that. Would he be willing to write up some post-mortems on some of these? I believe at least late Apollo and Stellar can qualify as unix? >> >> >> Apollo=E2=80=99s operating system (Aegis, Domain, Domain/OS) had a lot o= f good and interesting ideas and was quite influential > > I absolutely agree. > > But a number new idea were from an influx of MIT and ex-DEC folks actuall= y. And that that terrible sin called the registry that lives on winders ca= me from Paul (some of us thought it was a bad idea then too BTW). > > IMO: The best idea was the typed file system and the ability to run user = code specific with a file type. That's how IP, TCP, UDP are all implemente= d. Very, very cool. There is a USENIX paper that describes it I'll have t= o dig up the reference. It's worth reading. But I have never seen it impl= emented again as well. > > > >> >> A lot of what we take for granted today in distributed computing came vi= a Apollo more than anywhere else, as Apollo users and alumni took what they= learned to other systems. > > Yes and no. I agree it was a wonderful intellectual playground for some= very cool ideas. Some worked pretty well, but not all did. For example,= as Larry said earlier today, the "twin'ed" or diskless nodes were awful (r= eplace the S with C for what many of us think about them). But it got Sun = to make them too and ended up being a great add-in disk business later. I = refused at Masscomo and ended up losing war, even though the cost of a WS50= 0 was less than a Sun2 with a disk, people bought Sun's diskless and then a= fter they discovered they sucked, spent another 6K to buy a desk system for= them (we lost for economics, but I was technically right - a.k.a. Cole's l= aw of economics vs. sophisticated technology). > > Anyway, we (as a community) are better for having that system but other t= han the registry, I can think of little actual technology that we continue = to use from Aegis.