From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id b1d06c60 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 00:04:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CBFE39B8A5; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:04:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351FE9B8A2; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:04:22 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="Z1FE7SKR"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 073AB9B8A0; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:04:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-it1-f173.google.com (mail-it1-f173.google.com [209.85.166.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7215C9B8A2 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:04:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-it1-f173.google.com with SMTP id a6so10492164itl.4 for ; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:04:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lCt8YH30Vs/+UObuqwfRHrNigIL11W6T90x1sMocR34=; b=Z1FE7SKRVL7V3wbKN15+edJfMvtTxauyVL5+As8FLLNS+KxWz8lnxCB1lxI33j3nkL dA+AmOZs3TNzVxHUbElW9KH8+7w6Gb4+q29A9sReP1100KuTiD3wKMWzdYySOy/uDClU uuUiqYW62RPALU54BaEVGDQyukErJt37A49gM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lCt8YH30Vs/+UObuqwfRHrNigIL11W6T90x1sMocR34=; b=M/YgbG0Gc/MDBna3eBjc2kDTcr30ksBxeUu4OanDE2VlM+ii2pTHBbCuqNiwIFRCkm cypwYSWxkiG3obhFDPOVn9albFXTX7IXdKQrKtjzwYF1WDe8Cl0j8ZY5cvt5n8SDJY8h mTDnl14YXOoUBwURtpHvU9eLk2vxi+DICEZTVrOei6egAop8NZ588xdynUeTtnNzM4g1 Pv1jN1sblK7lVlsoeDrprzeV00a/o3TbPOxuj8MaFR7MUCfjCydL15rNxnQQ1zwiOlSs rJa8Q3+kkagb0gYZ58FUfhtjFjMLcIR6o0IYcAlLVARSnB0jm1C1L68FlMU4M9IjgMvu k14g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZkpl9nSW1ePimizbclNxr2pDaAihyJFoyRyzkdlkmiL+HfpBa2 TU5zggcB4wa0JPgxS8VXp4M422fSki1iK0pfPEBhLw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbdoFBswhX+XHXXs5OsnCCjI/d5Az0N2f7ekHMt8nBy9Y+uatoqIQLLHCky2A/ddqWZHf2grh6AwnK5jzjMZq4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9709:: with SMTP id h9mr7023823iol.257.1549497858682; Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:04:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190206235257.GU20698@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190206235257.GU20698@mcvoy.com> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 17:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Noel Chiappa Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:52 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 04:40:24PM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote: > > Seems like a case of winners write the history books. There were > > corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set in stone > > as a dominant protocol. Most F500 were interchanging on SNA into the > > 1990s. And access networks like Tymnet, etc to talk to others. > > Yeah, but those were all tied to some vendor. TCP/IP was the first > wide spread networking stack that you could get from a pile of different > vendors, Sun, Dec, SGI, IBM's AIX, every kernel supported it. System V > was late to the party, Lachman bought the rights to Convergent's STREAMs > based TCP/IP stack and had a tidy business for a while selling that stack > to lots of places. It was an awful stack, I know because I ported it to > a super computer and then to SCO's UNIX. When Sun switched to a System > Vr4 kernel, they bought it in some crazy bad deal and tried to use it > in Solaris. That lead to the tcp latency benchmark in lmbench because > Oracle's clustered database ran like shit on Slowaris and I traced it > down to their distributed lock manager and then whittled that code > down to lat_tcp.c. Sun eventually dumped that stack and went with > Mentat's code and tuned that back up. Sun actually dumped the socket > code and went just with STREAMs interfaces but was forced to bring > back sockets. Socket's aren't great but they won and there is no > turning back. > > > TCP, coupled with the rise of UNIX and the free wheel sharing of BSD > > code, are what made the people to talk to. > > BSD wasn't free until much later than TCP/IP. TCP/IP was developed in > the 1970's. > > http://www.securenet.net/members/shartley/history/tcp_ip.htm > > https://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_tcpip.htm This is where I am out of my depth, was it a "success" before the mid-late '80s as some dominant force? My reading is no outside universities with UNIX/BSD. The meteoric success came a bit later in the '80s with NSFNET, the rise of Cisco, and then the internet exchange culture in the early '90s CIX, PAIX, Metropolitan Fiber Systems etc got us to today and off Bell System stuff.