From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14254 invoked from network); 6 May 2022 22:57:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 May 2022 22:57:09 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E4FB29CF28; Sat, 7 May 2022 08:57:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8109CEEF; Sat, 7 May 2022 08:54:23 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="jiKZMEGC"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3693F9CEEF; Sat, 7 May 2022 08:54:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com (mail-yb1-f173.google.com [209.85.219.173]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94BFE9CEEE for ; Sat, 7 May 2022 08:54:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id y2so15255152ybi.7 for ; Fri, 06 May 2022 15:54:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yruOiguW2qS2Je9ZvcQLEo2yrIMLMpN4dC8sRRiIMTA=; b=jiKZMEGCapksiMnT59Km2FXT+W0fHEUek4wrMEVQj4IdJ5Hb1R9tAwjEsRNqIzurVP KG6fTklxlNg2IkJfK/Lq+CWUOT1pxjVbTJkhrBGmaUTjV7jGGrxp7Zviyw1anC7Lqpcb oW4+Dx/klNWk0zh0E81m/sYBjOZi1yfEC1G3Y= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yruOiguW2qS2Je9ZvcQLEo2yrIMLMpN4dC8sRRiIMTA=; b=qknHy6l6U/Y4Y+qAEGxj5Mt+NE5ASah/eqwIcZkXB6ny9iWqmTVWvWc83bQcnENFb7 c0fF13jbmMh45899+O/j1mD4nlkZXDDRTaKSWpbM24RcAzqf/kPAOK6XAQdpiCrH83UD 1iCRGIAI5aA3sMK933x/jVwC2zTtUGKP04cM+44Zu5aoOb8yGp2hWXJ/DZm2Y8b5ERIx aYUG84GyaTk0phqskpQPJqKJYyUqsnaAXwgSIiO7zmPK7uxoRTK5/yRj6SASi/lp1P+O BqbV7vKLqGOg2bjB1ahyZeFtwwidoDYK5gAsX9KFSg392FPu7Y06NTnkbSjwwAZydSEj pzFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530yw5UY5NG21bL88ohW1fvGyORca7vqq3b7z1RqSaCUJwM1RXEx S2Xh2aF3ZMKVjvsX8uyoJSAwyiGMLiX4TgOxHB26QA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxkyAVM5CFrdTAxhNBxI765MVeOpRHe/nodT0wnQ69hKgzdkwJDUM9CNWdIev+j5WpB3mJtopZ1d94Y+Mqbun8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:b55:0:b0:648:a216:9a8 with SMTP id 82-20020a250b55000000b00648a21609a8mr4093212ybl.330.1651877658584; Fri, 06 May 2022 15:54:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0173C556-D51E-44E4-A56B-8B738497AB83@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0173C556-D51E-44E4-A56B-8B738497AB83@gmail.com> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 15:54:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Adam Thornton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d7c9f05de5fbd45" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Alternative Implementation Proposal for Unix/370 (BTL, 1979) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000000d7c9f05de5fbd45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 4:03 PM Adam Thornton wrote: > > > On May 5, 2022, at 2:32 PM, Tom Lyon via TUHS > wrote: > > I was (re?)introduced to Chuck Haley recently and discovered he had a cop= y > of a Bell Labs memo from himself, London, Maranzaro, and Ritchie. They > suggest that the path pursued to get UNIX running in/under TSS/370 was th= e > hard way to go. > > Enjoy: > http://charles.the-haleys.org/papers/Alternate_Implementation_Proposal_fo= r_Unix370.pdf > > > Oh my. > > I mean, I know that OS (and descendants--for those of you without this > particular trauma, we mostly mean MVS (now z/OS), but of course there's > OS/MFT, OS/MVT, and then OS/MVS) was always trying to kill VM, and we we= nt > through similar crap with Linux/390 (and zLinux), which contains code to > let it run directly on the iron, even though even production shops are no= t > going to *do* that (OpenSolaris-for-z required VM underneath it; hell, it > required a couple new DIAGs we requested). > > That actually makes it easy to run zLinux on Hercules, so I'm not > complaining, but...it's not how any shop running it as anything other tha= n > a curiosity would do it. I mean, OK, I guess you could have a teeny litt= le > LPAR but let's face it the LPAR is basically VM. > Possibly metaphorically but this LPAR facility is provided by PR/SM starting with later 3090s and ES/9000. There is good coverage in IBM Systems Journal or IBM R&D journal (I can check my archives for which one if anyone needs a reference). It=E2=80=99s a firmware hypervisor like pHyp = or Sun=E2=80=99s ldom. VM is a strange yet delightful strain of operating system where full virtualization was front and center for both time sharing and isolation. There=E2=80=99s really nothing quite like it although lately things like Qu= bes and MirageOS may share some of the delights. --0000000000000d7c9f05de5fbd45 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 4:03 PM Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> wrote:


On May 5, 2022, at 2:32 PM= , Tom Lyon via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">
I was (re?)introduced to Chuck Haley recently and discovered he had= a copy of a Bell Labs memo from himself, London, Maranzaro, and Ritchie.= =C2=A0 They suggest that the path pursued to get UNIX running in/under=C2= =A0TSS/370 was the hard way to go.

Enjoy:=C2=A0=C2=A0http://charles.the-haleys.org/papers/Alternate_Implementa= tion_Proposal_for_Unix370.pdf

Oh my.

I mean, I know that OS (and desce= ndants--for those of you without this particular trauma, we mostly mean MVS= (now z/OS), but of course there's OS/MFT, OS/MVT, and then OS/MVS) =C2= =A0was always trying to kill VM, and we went through similar crap with Linu= x/390 (and zLinux), which contains code to let it run directly on the iron,= even though even production shops are not going to *do* that (OpenSolaris-= for-z required VM underneath it; hell, it required a couple new DIAGs we re= quested).

That actually makes it easy to run zLinu= x on Hercules, so I'm not complaining, but...it's not how any shop = running it as anything other than a curiosity would do it.=C2=A0 I mean, OK= , I guess you could have a teeny little LPAR but let's face it the LPAR= is basically VM.

Possibly metaphorically but this LPAR facility is provided by = PR/SM starting with later 3090s and ES/9000.=C2=A0 There is good coverage i= n IBM Systems Journal or IBM R&D journal (I can check my archives for w= hich one if anyone needs a reference). It=E2=80=99s a firmware hypervisor l= ike pHyp or Sun=E2=80=99s ldom.=C2=A0 VM is a strange yet delightful strain= of operating system where full virtualization was front and center for bot= h time sharing and isolation.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s really nothing quite li= ke it although lately things like Qubes and MirageOS may share some of the = delights.
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