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* [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
@ 2019-10-29  4:04 Warren Toomey
  2019-10-29  5:07 ` Warner Losh
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Warren Toomey @ 2019-10-29  4:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.

So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/

Cheers, Warren

P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  4:04 [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370 Warren Toomey
@ 2019-10-29  5:07 ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-10-29  5:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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This looks awesome. The readme says it's unsure if this is v6 or v7. Diff
of a few files suggests v6 with the 'u' area being a pointer instead of a
struct and a few of the elements names changed a bit... The dates are from
1976 or 1977, which also matches...

And we have this from wikipedia: "By 1976, the operating system was in use
at various academic institutions, including Princeton
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University>, where Tom Lyon and
others ported it to the S/370, to run as a guest OS under VM/370
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)>."  which matches the
dates as well found on the tape.

This is seriously cool. There are a few corrupted files (like dsk.h).
Kernel sources are there, but there's no userland programs apart from the
assembler and C compiler. Looking at the kernel dskio.s routines suggests
it's making an upcall to something with the sio instructions which suggests
this is the VM/370 version.

The hits keep coming!

Warner

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 10:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>
> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">This looks awesome. The readme says it&#39;s unsure if this is v6 or v7. Diff of a few files suggests v6 with the &#39;u&#39; area being a pointer instead of a struct and a few of the elements names changed a bit... The dates are from 1976 or 1977, which also matches...</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">And we have this from wikipedia: &quot;<span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">By 1976, the operating system was in use at various academic institutions, including </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University" title="Princeton University" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">Princeton</a><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">, where Tom Lyon and others ported it to the S/370, to run as a guest OS under </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)" title="VM (operating system)" style="text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">VM/370</a><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">.&quot;  which matches the dates as well found on the tape.</span></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">This is seriously cool. There are a few corrupted files (like dsk.h). Kernel sources are there, but there&#39;s no userland programs apart from the assembler and C compiler. Looking at the kernel dskio.s routines suggests it&#39;s making an upcall to something with the sio instructions which suggests this is the VM/370 version.</span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14px">The hits keep coming!<br></span></font><div><br></div><div>Warner</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 10:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
<br>
So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
<br>
Cheers, Warren<br>
<br>
P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  4:04 [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370 Warren Toomey
  2019-10-29  5:07 ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
  2019-10-29  7:14   ` SPC
  2019-11-05  4:12   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2019-10-29  5:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs



> On Oct 28, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
> 
> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
> 
> Cheers, Warren
> 
> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.


Well.

Time to dust of Hercules again.  Too bad the LCM+L has my P/390 and I had to give my Integrated Server back to IBM.

Adam

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
@ 2019-10-29  7:14   ` SPC
  2019-10-29 15:10     ` Warner Losh
  2019-11-05  4:12   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: SPC @ 2019-10-29  7:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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El mar., 29 oct. 2019 6:20, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> escribió:

>
>
> > On Oct 28, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
> >
> > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting
> PDP-7.
> >
> > So, cast your eyes on
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>
> Time to dust of Hercules again.
>

Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was
searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four & Six). Succesfully, I must say.
I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working
state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups,
but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list
later.

Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße
-----
Sergio Pedraja

>

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<div dir="auto"><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 29 oct. 2019 6:20, Adam Thornton &lt;<a href="mailto:athornton@gmail.com">athornton@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 28, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
&gt; arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br><br>
Time to dust of Hercules again.<br></blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four &amp; Six). Succesfully, I must say. I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups, but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list later.</div><div dir="auto"><br style="font-family:sans-serif"><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" style="font-family:sans-serif" dir="auto">Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße<br>-----<br>Sergio Pedraja</div></div><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  7:14   ` SPC
@ 2019-10-29 15:10     ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-29 15:22       ` SPC
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-10-29 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: SPC; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:15 AM SPC <spedraja@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> El mar., 29 oct. 2019 6:20, Adam Thornton <athornton@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 28, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
>> > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting
>> PDP-7.
>> >
>> > So, cast your eyes on
>> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>>
>> Time to dust of Hercules again.
>>
>
> Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was
> searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four & Six). Succesfully, I must say.
> I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working
> state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups,
> but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list
> later.
>

I sure hope the internet archive pulls it all down before it goes away.
Geocities used to have a lot of obscure hardware info on it and that was
mostly lost when they went away :(

Warner

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:15 AM SPC &lt;<a href="mailto:spedraja@gmail.com">spedraja@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 29 oct. 2019 6:20, Adam Thornton &lt;<a href="mailto:athornton@gmail.com" target="_blank">athornton@gmail.com</a>&gt; escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 28, 2019, at 9:04 PM, Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
&gt; arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br><br>
Time to dust of Hercules again.<br></blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four &amp; Six). Succesfully, I must say. I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups, but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list later.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I sure hope the internet archive pulls it all down before it goes away. Geocities used to have a lot of obscure hardware info on it and that was mostly lost when they went away :(</div><div><br></div><div>Warner </div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29 15:10     ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-10-29 15:22       ` SPC
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: SPC @ 2019-10-29 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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El mar., 29 oct. 2019 a las 16:11, Warner Losh (<imp@bsdimp.com>) escribió:

Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was
>> searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four & Six). Succesfully, I must say.
>> I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working
>> state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups,
>> but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list
>> later.
>>
>
> I sure hope the internet archive pulls it all down before it goes away.
> Geocities used to have a lot of obscure hardware info on it and that was
> mostly lost when they went away :(
>
> Warner
>

Just in case and for knowledge of anyone interested, I have made a backup
pf the messages and contents at date of all the Hercules-related groups
under Yahoogroups. It's saved in SQLite format plus the files accesibles
individually.

I've added too some new URLs with the VM packs and some other stuff as
Hercules v.4, Turnkey TK4 distro, and so.

In fact I am thinking to raise one webpage dedicated to this matter, in
english and spanish languages. I had the same idea for a TUHS mirror some
time ago but it's just now when I have some free time to think seriously
about it.

Kind Regards
Sergio

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 29 oct. 2019 a las 16:11, Warner Losh (&lt;<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com">imp@bsdimp.com</a>&gt;) escribió:</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">Amazing, Warren. And for sure the Hercules reference. Just today I was searching for Hercules VM/370 Packs (Four &amp; Six). Succesfully, I must say. I will appreciate to read about all the attempts to put it on working state. Sadly, this used to be managed on Hercules groups under Yahoogroups, but this platform is closing. I can provide some details in [COFF] list later.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I sure hope the internet archive pulls it all down before it goes away. Geocities used to have a lot of obscure hardware info on it and that was mostly lost when they went away :(</div><div><br></div><div>Warner </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Just in case and for knowledge of anyone interested, I have made a backup pf the messages and contents at date of all the Hercules-related groups under Yahoogroups. It&#39;s saved in SQLite format plus the files accesibles individually.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">I&#39;ve added too some new URLs with the VM packs and some other stuff as Hercules v.4, Turnkey TK4 distro, and so.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">In fact I am thinking to raise one webpage dedicated to this matter, in english and spanish languages. I had the same idea for a TUHS mirror some time ago but it&#39;s just now when I have some free time to think seriously about it.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Kind Regards</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Sergio</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  4:04 [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370 Warren Toomey
  2019-10-29  5:07 ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
@ 2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31  4:16   ` Larry McVoy
                     ` (4 more replies)
  2 siblings, 5 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lyon @ 2019-10-31  3:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warren Toomey; +Cc: tuhs

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Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/

If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
recovered bits.

I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
with the Interdata 8/32 here: https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:

> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>
> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>


-- 
- Tom

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<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at LCM+L from DECtapes that I&#39;ve had sitting around for 40+ years.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you&#39;ll need Hercules with a VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There&#39;s not a lot beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a networking guy ]. I personally haven&#39;t had time to do anything with the recovered bits.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I&#39;ve been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell with the Interdata 8/32 here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
<br>
So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
<br>
Cheers, Warren<br>
<br>
P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">- Tom</div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
@ 2019-10-31  4:16   ` Larry McVoy
  2019-10-31  7:51   ` arnold
                     ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-10-31  4:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Lyon; +Cc: tuhs

Hijacking this a bit but much props to Tom, he has done so much.  I 
learned he exposed the IOMMU to user space in Linux, you have to be
a geek to get how cool that is, it's life changing for VMs and Tom
just sort of said yeah, I did that, like it was not a big deal.

So I hosted Tom and a bunch of other systems guys at my place, we did
a rib fest and talked about systems.  It's the most fun I've had in
years, Kirk and Eric came and spent the night in my guest house and
Kirk dryly said "could we do this more often than every 20 years" 
because I used to go to their house for wine tastings.  But it had
been at least 20 years.

Kevin Bowling was the energy that got that meeting going and he has
asked me if there was some way to get an East Coast version of that
going.  He really wants the DEC people, he has a theory that if we
could get the PDP-11 people and the VAX people there would be so many
good stories.

Would there be any interest in getting the DEC people together and 
getting them to tell stories?  I hate to travel but I'd travel for
that, especially if we got bwk and other Bell Labs people like 
Doug to show up.

Pugs, happy to see you here, this list is fun.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 08:56:04PM -0700, Tom Lyon wrote:
> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
> 
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
> 
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here: https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
> 
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
> 
> > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
> >
> > So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
> >
> > Cheers, Warren
> >
> > P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> - Tom

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31  4:16   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-10-31  7:51   ` arnold
  2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31  8:09   ` SPC
                     ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-10-31  7:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: wkt, pugs; +Cc: tuhs

Hi Tom,

Kudos for making these things available. The links are great reading
as well.

I have the strong impression that this is different from the port
at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you confirm?

Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever that's
in the archive?

Thanks,

Arnold

Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org> wrote:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here: https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
> >
> > So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
> >
> > Cheers, Warren
> >
> > P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
> >
>
>
> -- 
> - Tom

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31  4:16   ` Larry McVoy
  2019-10-31  7:51   ` arnold
@ 2019-10-31  8:09   ` SPC
  2019-10-31 15:12   ` Warner Losh
  2019-11-03  1:02   ` Kevin Bowling
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: SPC @ 2019-10-31  8:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2875 bytes --]

El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 4:57, Tom Lyon (<pugs@ieee.org>) escribió:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>

Welcome.

> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>

Both items are available. Hoping it could be helpful, I share below some
links to related IBM 370 and DEC PDP-11 stuff that I've recently found and
more or less organized:

*HERCULES*

The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator -
http://www.hercules-390.eu/

SoftDevLabs (SDL) version of Hercules 4.x, code named Hyperion -
http://www.softdevlabs.com/hyperion.html

*A branch of the original development of Hercules numbered itself as v.4
with more or less regular compilations *
*VM/370*

Robert O'Hara Six Pack Distribution v1.2 of VM/370 -
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/VM370.htm

*Very interesting because he includes in the same webpage downloads of the
previous VM/370 packs (Paul Gorinskey's, Andy Norrie's, Bob Abele's)*

*There is a BETA version v1.3 available too.*

Implementing VSAM under VM/370 SixPack v1.2 -
http://www.kicksfortso.com/same/KooKbooK/KooKbooK-14.htm

A compilation of Operating Systems for IBM S/370 available for download on
the Internet - https://geronimo370.nl/s370/s-370-operating-systems/<<

*It includes one direct link to the page of Robert O'Hara SixPack BETA
version v1.3 *

A relatively wide explanation of the features available in SixPack v1.2 -
https://hub.docker.com/r/rbanffy/vm370

*It includes something inusual: one link to Github where you can find one
DOCKER implementation of theSixPack v1.2 *

A surprising (and interesting) bunch of videoclips about VM/370 -
<http://www.hercules-390.eu/>https://bestofclip.net/search?s=VM/370
*PDP-11*

SIMH (Conputer History Sinulator Project). The original distribution, V3.10-0,
updated 24-Feb-2019  - http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
SIMH Original Software Kits (including bootable UNIX v7 and v6 disks) -
http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html

The SIMH v.4.x Github place, a branch of the original project with some
interesting additions - https://github.com/simh/simh
SIMH v4.0 development binaries -
https://github.com/simh/Win32-Development-Binaries

Kind Regards

Sergio Pedraja

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 10155 bytes --]

<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-size:small"><div><div style="font-family:arial"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 4:57, Tom Lyon (&lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt;) escribió:</span><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at LCM+L from DECtapes that I&#39;ve had sitting around for 40+ years.</div><div style="font-size:small">You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Welcome.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you&#39;ll need Hercules with a VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There&#39;s not a lot beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a networking guy ]. I personally haven&#39;t had time to do anything with the recovered bits.</div></div></blockquote><div> </div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Both items are available. Hoping it could be helpful, I share below some links to related IBM 370 and DEC PDP-11 stuff that I&#39;ve recently found and more or less organized:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial, sans-serif" style="" size="4"><b style=""><u style="">HERCULES</u></b></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial, sans-serif"><b style=""><br></b></font></div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span>The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator<span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"> - </span><a href="http://www.hercules-390.eu/">http://www.hercules-390.eu/<br></a><br></div><div>SoftDevLabs (SDL) version of Hercules 4.x, code named Hyperion<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"> </span><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">- </span><a href="http://www.softdevlabs.com/hyperion.html">http://www.softdevlabs.com/hyperion.html</a></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><b style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#ff0000"><span class="gmail_default">A branch of the original development of Hercules numbered itself as v.4 with more or less regular compilations </span></font></b></div><div><div class="gmail_default"></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif" size="4"><b><u>VM/370</u></b></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif" size="4"><b><br></b></font></div><span class="gmail_default" style=""><span class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial, sans-serif" style="">Robert O&#39;Hara Six Pack Distribution v1.2 of VM/370 </font></span><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">- </span><a href="http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/VM370.htm" style="">http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/VM370.htm</a> </span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style=""><font color="#222222"><br></font></span></div><div><b style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><span class="gmail_default" style="">Very interesting because he includes in the same webpage </span><span class="gmail_default" style="">downloads of the previous VM/370 packs (</span>Paul Gorinskey&#39;s<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">, </span>Andy Norrie&#39;s<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">,</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><font face="arial, sans-serif"> Bob Abele&#39;s</font></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"></span>)</font></b></div><div><b style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#ff0000"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><font face="arial, sans-serif">There is a BETA version v1.3 available too</font></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">.</span><br></font></b></div><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span><font face="arial, sans-serif">Implementing VSAM under VM/370 SixPack v1.2 - </font><a href="http://www.kicksfortso.com/same/KooKbooK/KooKbooK-14.htm" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">http://www.kicksfortso.com/same/KooKbooK/KooKbooK-14.htm</a><font face="monospace, monospace"></font></div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span><font face="arial, sans-serif">A compilation of Operating Systems for IBM S/370 available for download on the Internet - </font><a href="https://geronimo370.nl/s370/s-370-operating-systems/" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://geronimo370.nl/s370/s-370-operating-systems/</a><font face="monospace, monospace">&lt;&lt;</font></div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><b style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#ff0000"><span class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif">It includes one direct link to the page of Robert O&#39;Hara SixPack BETA version v1.3 </font></span></font></b></div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span><font face="arial, sans-serif">A relatively wide explanation of the features available in SixPack v1.2 </font><font face="monospace, monospace">- </font><a href="https://hub.docker.com/r/rbanffy/vm370" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://hub.docker.com/r/rbanffy/vm370</a><font face="monospace, monospace"></font></div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><b style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font color="#ff0000"><span class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif">It includes something inusual: one link to Github where you can find one DOCKER implementation of theSixPack v1.2 </font></span></font></b></div><br></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style=""><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="">A surprising (and interesting) bunch of videoclips about VM/370 </span>- <a href="http://www.hercules-390.eu/" style=""><span class="gmail_default"></span>

</a><a href="https://bestofclip.net/search?s=VM/370" style="">https://bestofclip.net/search?s=VM/370</a>  </font><br><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></div><font face="monospace, monospace"></font></span><div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif" size="4"><b><u>PDP-11</u></b></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif" size="4"><b><br></b></font></div><span class="gmail_default"><span class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif">SIMH (Conputer History Sinulator Project). The original distribution, </font></span></span>V3.10-0, updated 24-Feb-2019<span class="gmail_default"><span class="gmail_default"><font face="arial, sans-serif">  </font></span><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">- </span></span><a href="http://simh.trailing-edge.com/">http://simh.trailing-edge.com/</a></div><div><span class="gmail_default"><font color="#222222">SIMH Original Software Kits (including bootable UNIX v7 and v6 disks) - </font></span><a href="http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html">http://simh.trailing-edge.com/software.html</a></div><div><span class="gmail_default"><font color="#222222"><br></font></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default"><font color="#222222">The SIMH v.4.x Github place, a branch of the original project with some interesting additions - </font></span><a href="https://github.com/simh/simh">https://github.com/simh/simh</a></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span><font face="arial, sans-serif">SIMH v4.0 development binaries - </font><a href="https://github.com/simh/Win32-Development-Binaries" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://github.com/simh/Win32-Development-Binaries</a><font face="monospace, monospace"></font></div><br></div><div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Kind Regards</div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Sergio Pedraja</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  7:51   ` arnold
@ 2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lyon @ 2019-10-31 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2247 bytes --]

The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS group
used.

Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.  And maybe there
was another IBM port??

Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi),
and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:51 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
> Kudos for making these things available. The links are great reading
> as well.
>
> I have the strong impression that this is different from the port
> at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you confirm?
>
> Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever that's
> in the archive?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold
>
> Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen
> at
> > LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> > You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> > https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
> >
> > If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> > VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> > beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> > worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> > problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> > networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> > recovered bits.
> >
> > I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> > Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> > with the Interdata 8/32 here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
> >
> > > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
> > > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting
> PDP-7.
> > >
> > > So, cast your eyes on
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
> > >
> > > Cheers, Warren
> > >
> > > P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Tom
>


-- 
- Tom

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3616 bytes --]

<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells&#39;s ESS group used.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.  And maybe there was another IBM port??</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:51 AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Tom,<br>
<br>
Kudos for making these things available. The links are great reading<br>
as well.<br>
<br>
I have the strong impression that this is different from the port<br>
at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you confirm?<br>
<br>
Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever that&#39;s<br>
in the archive?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Arnold<br>
<br>
Tom Lyon &lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org" target="_blank">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at<br>
&gt; LCM+L from DECtapes that I&#39;ve had sitting around for 40+ years.<br>
&gt; You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:<br>
&gt; <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you&#39;ll need Hercules with a<br>
&gt; VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There&#39;s not a lot<br>
&gt; beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork<br>
&gt; worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication<br>
&gt; problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a<br>
&gt; networking guy ]. I personally haven&#39;t had time to do anything with the<br>
&gt; recovered bits.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ve been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and<br>
&gt; Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell<br>
&gt; with the Interdata 8/32 here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" target="_blank">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
&gt; &gt; arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers, Warren<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; - Tom<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">- Tom</div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
@ 2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
  2019-10-31 14:22         ` Larry McVoy
                           ` (3 more replies)
  2019-10-31 15:10       ` Heinz Lycklama
  2019-11-01 16:40       ` Clem Cole
  2 siblings, 4 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-10-31 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: pugs, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

Tom,

Thanks.

AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
actually saw AIX/370 running.)

> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS group
> used.

That's what I thought. That clarifies the README for the TUHS archives
(Warren, ...).

> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi),
> and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.

Any chance on getting those? ISTR that it was SunOS 4.0 that was
ported. Larry -- any firsthand knowledge on that?

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
@ 2019-10-31 14:22         ` Larry McVoy
  2019-10-31 14:24         ` SPC
                           ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2019-10-31 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 08:10:39AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi),
> > and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
> 
> Any chance on getting those? ISTR that it was SunOS 4.0 that was
> ported. Larry -- any firsthand knowledge on that?

As surprised as I am to admit this, I knew nothing about this.  Never even
heard about it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
  2019-10-31 14:22         ` Larry McVoy
@ 2019-10-31 14:24         ` SPC
  2019-10-31 15:31         ` Charles H Sauer
  2019-11-01 16:52         ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: SPC @ 2019-10-31 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 15:11, <arnold@skeeve.com> escribió:

> Tom,
>
> > The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> > TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS
> group
> > used.
>
> That's what I thought. That clarifies the README for the TUHS archives
> (Warren, ...).
>

Just in case someone would like to put an eye on it, there is one copy of
TSS available to run under Hercules.

Regards
Sergio

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 15:11, &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Tom,<br>
<br>&gt; The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of<br>
&gt; TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells&#39;s ESS group<br>
&gt; used.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s what I thought. That clarifies the README for the TUHS archives<br>
(Warren, ...).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Just in case someone would like to put an eye on it, there is one copy of TSS available to run under Hercules.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Regards</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small">Sergio</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;font-size:small"><br></div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
@ 2019-10-31 15:10       ` Heinz Lycklama
  2019-11-01 16:40       ` Clem Cole
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Heinz Lycklama @ 2019-10-31 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Lyon, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

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We (INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.) also did a port of UNIX to
IBM's VM/370 for IBM in the mid 1980's. Also ported UNIX
to Hitachi's mainframe in the late 1980's, although it's not
mentioned here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Systems_Corporation

Heinz

On 10/31/2019 6:51 AM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside 
> of TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's 
> ESS group used.
>
> Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.  And maybe 
> there was another IBM port??
>
> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for 
> Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:51 AM <arnold@skeeve.com 
> <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Tom,
>
>     Kudos for making these things available. The links are great reading
>     as well.
>
>     I have the strong impression that this is different from the port
>     at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you confirm?
>
>     Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever that's
>     in the archive?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Arnold
>
>     Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org <mailto:pugs@ieee.org>> wrote:
>
>     > Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by
>     Stephen at
>     > LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
>     > You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
>     > https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>     >
>     > If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need
>     Hercules with a
>     > VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's
>     not a lot
>     > beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
>     > worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
>     > problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
>     > networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything
>     with the
>     > recovered bits.
>     >
>     > I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken
>     Thompson and
>     > Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer
>     at Bell
>     > with the Interdata 8/32 here:
>     https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>     >
>     > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org
>     <mailto:wkt@tuhs.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     > > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to
>     announce has
>     > > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the
>     booting PDP-7.
>     > >
>     > > So, cast your eyes on
>     https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>     > >
>     > > Cheers, Warren
>     > >
>     > > P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>     > >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > - Tom
>
>
>
> -- 
> - Tom


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    We (INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.) also did a port of UNIX to<br>
    IBM's VM/370 for IBM in the mid 1980's. Also ported UNIX<br>
    to Hitachi's mainframe in the late 1980's, although it's not<br>
    mentioned here:<br>
        <a
      href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Systems_Corporation">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Systems_Corporation</a><br>
    <br>
    Heinz<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/31/2019 6:51 AM, Tom Lyon wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The Bell Labs
          370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
          TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides
          Bells's ESS group used.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Clem can tell
          us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.  And maybe there
          was another IBM port??</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Much later,
          Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for
          Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:51
          AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi
          Tom,<br>
          <br>
          Kudos for making these things available. The links are great
          reading<br>
          as well.<br>
          <br>
          I have the strong impression that this is different from the
          port<br>
          at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you
          confirm?<br>
          <br>
          Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever
          that's<br>
          in the archive?<br>
          <br>
          Thanks,<br>
          <br>
          Arnold<br>
          <br>
          Tom Lyon &lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org" target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
          <br>
          &gt; Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was
          recovered by Stephen at<br>
          &gt; LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+
          years.<br>
          &gt; You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:<br>
          &gt; <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a><br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need
          Hercules with a<br>
          &gt; VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6.
          There's not a lot<br>
          &gt; beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to
          prove that fork<br>
          &gt; worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful
          communication<br>
          &gt; problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my
          start as a<br>
          &gt; networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do
          anything with the<br>
          &gt; recovered bits.<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to
          Ken Thompson and<br>
          &gt; Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my
          summer at Bell<br>
          &gt; with the Interdata 8/32 here: <a
            href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/</a><br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a
            href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting
          to announce has<br>
          &gt; &gt; arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's
          not the booting PDP-7.<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; So, cast your eyes on <a
            href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/"
            rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; Cheers, Warren<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt; &gt; P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
          &gt; &gt;<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt;<br>
          &gt; -- <br>
          &gt; - Tom<br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br clear="all">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      -- <br>
      <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
        <div dir="ltr">- Tom</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
                     ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-10-31  8:09   ` SPC
@ 2019-10-31 15:12   ` Warner Losh
  2019-11-03  1:02   ` Kevin Bowling
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-10-31 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Lyon; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1958 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:57 PM Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org> wrote:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>

These are interesting bits that add to the flavor of what we know already.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up...

One interesting thing from this. Your UNIX 370 port was started before the
Wollongong Interdata port. Your work on Unix 370 started in August of '75,
but the Wollongong port started in November '76 and was put into production
in July '77.

And we have the TSS/370 port described in the BSTJ, and the Bell Lab's
Intersil 8/32 port. It makes me wonder what other porting efforts had
started in the 75-78 time frame....

Warner


> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
>> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>>
>> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>>
>> Cheers, Warren
>>
>> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Tom
>

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<div dir="ltr"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:57 PM Tom Lyon &lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at LCM+L from DECtapes that I&#39;ve had sitting around for 40+ years.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you&#39;ll need Hercules with a VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There&#39;s not a lot beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a networking guy ]. I personally haven&#39;t had time to do anything with the recovered bits.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I&#39;ve been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell with the Interdata 8/32 here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>These are interesting bits that add to the flavor of what we know already. Thank you for taking the time to write this up...</div><div><br></div><div>One interesting thing from this. Your UNIX 370 port was started before the Wollongong Interdata port. Your work on Unix 370 started in August of &#39;75, but the Wollongong port started in November &#39;76 and was put into production in July &#39;77.</div><div><br></div><div>And we have the TSS/370 port described in the BSTJ, and the Bell Lab&#39;s Intersil 8/32 port. It makes me wonder what other porting efforts had started in the 75-78 time frame....</div><div><br></div><div>Warner</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" target="_blank">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
<br>
So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
<br>
Cheers, Warren<br>
<br>
P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">- Tom</div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
  2019-10-31 14:22         ` Larry McVoy
  2019-10-31 14:24         ` SPC
@ 2019-10-31 15:31         ` Charles H Sauer
  2019-11-01 16:52         ` Clem Cole
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Charles H Sauer @ 2019-10-31 15:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

AIX/370 was done by LCC, primarily in Santa Monica. AIX PS/2 was also 
part of that effort. Clem probably remembers more. Charlie

On 10/31/2019 9:10 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:

> AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> actually saw AIX/370 running.)

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
  2019-10-31 15:10       ` Heinz Lycklama
@ 2019-11-01 16:40       ` Clem Cole
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-11-01 16:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tom Lyon; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 6:52 AM Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org> wrote:

> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS group
> used.
>

It's funny, I did not learn of it until after CMU discommomission that
IBM/TSS system which I broke in on.

>
> Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.
>
Yeah it was called and would be a product Locus did for IBM (AIX/370)
primarily for the University market.   It's what the Locus (TCF) book
describes.



> And maybe there was another IBM port??
>
I'm not sure what Amdahl had originally.  I had always thought it was based
on your original from Princeton.




>
> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for
> Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
>
I heard that had been done, but never knew how well it worked.

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 6:52 AM Tom Lyon &lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells&#39;s ESS group used.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">It&#39;s funny, I did not learn of it until after CMU discommomission that IBM/TSS system which I broke in on.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370. </div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Yeah it was called and would be a product Locus did for IBM (AIX/370) primarily for the University market.   It&#39;s what the Locus (TCF) book describes.</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small"> And maybe there was another IBM port??</div></div></blockquote><div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I&#39;m not sure what Amdahl had originally.  I had always thought it was based on your original from Princeton.</div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.</div></div></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I heard that had been done, but never knew how well it worked.</div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
                           ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-10-31 15:31         ` Charles H Sauer
@ 2019-11-01 16:52         ` Clem Cole
  2019-11-03  7:05           ` arnold
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-11-01 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1336 bytes --]

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:11 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Thanks.
>
> AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> actually saw AIX/370 running.)
>
AIX/370 and AIX/386 were done for IBM under contract by Locus Computing
Corporation (a.k.a. LCC)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Computing_Corporation> .  And yes,
most customers that I knew ran it bare metal.

Because of TCF (Transparent Computing Facility), PS/2 based PC were
clustered with the 370s, under a single system image (i.e. up to 32
processors of any time, looked to the world like a single processor).   The
OS looked at the binary and found a properly provisioned system in the
cluster to execute it.  So you could have require option hardware that only
one node might have, and the process would be migrated to that node.  It
also meant nodes could and be added and removed dynamically.

The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2328 bytes --]

<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:11 AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Tom,<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<br>
AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running<br>
on top of VM.  I don&#39;t know what, if any, relationship it had to the<br>
Locus work. (In the late &#39;80s I worked at a university computing center<br>
with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I&#39;m recalling what I heard. I never<br>
actually saw AIX/370 running.)<br></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">AIX/370 and AIX/386 were done for IBM under contract by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Computing_Corporation">Locus Computing Corporation (a.k.a. LCC)</a> .  And yes, most customers that I knew ran it bare metal.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Because of TCF (Transparent Computing Facility), PS/2 based PC were clustered with the 370s, under a single system image (i.e. up to 32 processors of any time, looked to the world like a single processor).   The OS looked at the binary and found a properly provisioned system in the cluster to execute it.  So you could have require option hardware that only one node might have, and the process would be migrated to that node.  It also meant nodes could and be added and removed dynamically.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added to Linux 2x kernel as: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">OpenSSI</a></div></div></div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
                     ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-10-31 15:12   ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-11-03  1:02   ` Kevin Bowling
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Kevin Bowling @ 2019-11-03  1:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave McGuire, Tom Lyon; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1835 bytes --]

Tom,

In case you ever pass through Pittsburgh, Dave has 370s of various flavor
and some pdp-11s.  I’d be pretty entertained trying to get this running in
some capacity on real iron in the future when I visit Dave.

I may put out another form to see if people would be interested in doing an
event there.

In the meantime thanks for recovering and posting this.

Regards,
Kevin

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:57 PM Tom Lyon <pugs@ieee.org> wrote:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
>> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>>
>> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>>
>> Cheers, Warren
>>
>> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Tom
>

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<div><div dir="auto">Tom,</div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In case you ever pass through Pittsburgh, Dave has 370s of various flavor and some pdp-11s.  I’d be pretty entertained trying to get this running in some capacity on real iron in the future when I visit Dave.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I may put out another form to see if people would be interested in doing an event there.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">In the meantime thanks for recovering and posting this.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Regards,</div><div dir="auto">Kevin</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:57 PM Tom Lyon &lt;<a href="mailto:pugs@ieee.org">pugs@ieee.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at LCM+L from DECtapes that I&#39;ve had sitting around for 40+ years.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you&#39;ll need Hercules with a VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There&#39;s not a lot beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a networking guy ]. I personally haven&#39;t had time to do anything with the recovered bits.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I&#39;ve been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell with the Interdata 8/32 here: <a href="https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/" target="_blank">https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey &lt;<a href="mailto:wkt@tuhs.org" target="_blank">wkt@tuhs.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All, the second Unix artifact that I&#39;ve been waiting to announce has<br>
arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It&#39;s not the booting PDP-7.<br>
<br>
So, cast your eyes on <a href="https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/</a><br>
<br>
Cheers, Warren<br>
<br>
P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">- Tom</div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-11-01 16:52         ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-11-03  7:05           ` arnold
  2019-11-03 21:16             ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-11-03  7:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: clemc, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

Thaks Clem.

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:11 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> > on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> > Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> > with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> > actually saw AIX/370 running.)
> >
> AIX/370 and AIX/386 were done for IBM under contract by Locus Computing
> Corporation (a.k.a. LCC)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Computing_Corporation> .  And yes,
> most customers that I knew ran it bare metal.

Glad to know that I remembered correctly.

In the early 90s I worked teaching multi-vendor Unix courses. One
frustration was that AIX on the 370 and AIX on the PS/2 were essentially
the same as each other but very different from AIX on the RS/6000
machines.  A co-worker and I wrote a short essay about if IBM made
cooking equipment:

	The IBM Industrial Furnace and the IBM camping stove
	would be almost, but not quite entirely, totally different
	from the IBM Home Oven.

Or something like that. I can't find the original.

> Because of TCF (Transparent Computing Facility), PS/2 based PC were
> clustered with the 370s, under a single system image (i.e. up to 32
> processors of any time, looked to the world like a single processor).   The
> OS looked at the binary and found a properly provisioned system in the
> cluster to execute it.  So you could have require option hardware that only
> one node might have, and the process would be migrated to that node.  It
> also meant nodes could and be added and removed dynamically.

Very cool.

> The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>

Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
SourceForge page are 5 years old.

Thanks,

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-11-03  7:05           ` arnold
@ 2019-11-03 21:16             ` Clem Cole
  2019-11-04 14:43               ` arnold
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-11-03 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aharon Robbins; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 603 bytes --]

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

>
> > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
>
> Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> SourceForge page are 5 years old.
>
I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up

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<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent<br>
&gt; Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added<br>
&gt; to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI &lt;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The <a href="http://opessi.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">opessi.org</a><br>
home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the<br>
SourceForge page are 5 years old.<br></blockquote><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up</div></div></div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-11-03 21:16             ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-11-04 14:43               ` arnold
  2019-11-05 14:15                 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2019-11-04 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: clemc, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> > > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> > > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
> >
> > Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> > home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> > SourceForge page are 5 years old.
> >
> I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
> taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up

Ah, OK. Thanks for the info. On the one hand, two bad. On the other hand,
it looks like a real patchwork quilt of technologies...

Thanks,

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
  2019-10-29  7:14   ` SPC
@ 2019-11-05  4:12   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2019-11-05  4:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 512 bytes --]

On 10/28/19 11:19 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:
> Too bad the LCM+L has my P/390 and I had to give my Integrated Server 
> back to IBM.


I recently acquired a P/390-E and I'd be happy to try running something 
on it.  It was a learning experience getting it up and operational. 
(That's a story for a different day.)

I'd love to get my hands on AIX/370.  I figured it was gone for good 
after I read that IBM tried to actively destroy it and wipe it from history.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
  2019-11-04 14:43               ` arnold
@ 2019-11-05 14:15                 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-11-05 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1394 bytes --]

IBM owned TCF and it was 100% screwed down into AIX.   The clean room team
which did TNC used many of the ideas but tried to make it layered into 14
separate technologies so customer could pick and choose.   HP originally
picked up the process technology but not the FS work.   DEC was the
reverse.   Novell/Tandem took all it.  HP ended up with all the IP and in
the end released it as FOSS.   Hence the OpenSSI project

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 9:43 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called
> Transparent
> > > > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and
> added
> > > > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
> > >
> > > Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> > > home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> > > SourceForge page are 5 years old.
> > >
> > I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
> > taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up
>
> Ah, OK. Thanks for the info. On the one hand, two bad. On the other hand,
> it looks like a real patchwork quilt of technologies...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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<div><div dir="auto">IBM owned TCF and it was 100% screwed down into AIX.   The clean room team which did TNC used many of the ideas but tried to make it layered into 14 separate technologies so customer could pick and choose.   HP originally picked up the process technology but not the FS work.   DEC was the reverse.   Novell/Tandem took all it.  HP ended up with all the IP and in the end released it as FOSS.   Hence the OpenSSI project</div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 9:43 AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Clem Cole &lt;<a href="mailto:clemc@ccc.com" target="_blank">clemc@ccc.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM &lt;<a href="mailto:arnold@skeeve.com" target="_blank">arnold@skeeve.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI &lt;<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The <a href="http://opessi.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">opessi.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the<br>
&gt; &gt; SourceForge page are 5 years old.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were<br>
&gt; taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up<br>
<br>
Ah, OK. Thanks for the info. On the one hand, two bad. On the other hand,<br>
it looks like a real patchwork quilt of technologies...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Arnold<br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual</div>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 25+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-10-29  4:04 [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370 Warren Toomey
2019-10-29  5:07 ` Warner Losh
2019-10-29  5:19 ` Adam Thornton
2019-10-29  7:14   ` SPC
2019-10-29 15:10     ` Warner Losh
2019-10-29 15:22       ` SPC
2019-11-05  4:12   ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2019-10-31  3:56 ` Tom Lyon
2019-10-31  4:16   ` Larry McVoy
2019-10-31  7:51   ` arnold
2019-10-31 13:51     ` Tom Lyon
2019-10-31 14:10       ` arnold
2019-10-31 14:22         ` Larry McVoy
2019-10-31 14:24         ` SPC
2019-10-31 15:31         ` Charles H Sauer
2019-11-01 16:52         ` Clem Cole
2019-11-03  7:05           ` arnold
2019-11-03 21:16             ` Clem Cole
2019-11-04 14:43               ` arnold
2019-11-05 14:15                 ` Clem Cole
2019-10-31 15:10       ` Heinz Lycklama
2019-11-01 16:40       ` Clem Cole
2019-10-31  8:09   ` SPC
2019-10-31 15:12   ` Warner Losh
2019-11-03  1:02   ` Kevin Bowling

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