From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26054 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2023 21:20:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 18 Jan 2023 21:20:20 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAB042432; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:20:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com (mail-pg1-f169.google.com [209.85.215.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55D9342431 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2023 07:20:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id g68so24417613pgc.11 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:20:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=yOK2jecyI2N7VtPMjvcHkUii3Krc0P/Asa+A6n9zlIs=; b=a1zrpczK/OM8IsitI6RiuYh6kIez9JAyTktXv4GRl1PZi8ghzJ/gA8n6DKXBtTbBxu +3GTBm0eC048lC3LnfBvNKr/6mO571/cvYPS+k/yDZlS8w3XAE1nqHDnEncUDJ0++SDm vlSNHpXPdwQeSd3ALtFR1POtog2h6ua7RsI0U= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yOK2jecyI2N7VtPMjvcHkUii3Krc0P/Asa+A6n9zlIs=; b=u85TaAACCnBXaMP7TD28chIAd4PB06gVC6fAl5DQBPfd+drCKc8Us7ZUFBv6LwR5io RNUtTKvnX+3heVC6+CxUOxjRMujQPuqytJvjNXJbik8LIF9yGNcORhY9kp9uay/VP5VA qBfuBKFdZWHoK8ZUsHgEdafklHJxFP/ATrgdpRF99HYXj8XVA9acQGF7nvvMZBPVfiuF 0OgOpg7sRcF6BSCvrUCKJGMTXI3BRKQvewmTpkV6uqfV0nbl/+VnaAzEeHlbPm3zQk6C PZI2GCGgoQZRNxVJHTP9v7gcvnZT+MeVBJU+o9PxN+8Xm9o/8pR7aQtBdja/2g+jOR2k i8gA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krr09SLzRzY9tLKszfbz7pjlF+bjBK1G6B2QK5cm1v5+jrTb9YJ /ZcxWQFtRz/PqZ0An4SMeXfta/T+hsjlPmtxFDt5Ow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXusjP/jFt1xJpXQuogvgQsQYpuAosoduAnu+oHGs7pTDgQTz/f5tJuRFGH1G94mEdlPijtohlIH6s2e+l9mJuc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1301:0:b0:477:f6be:b65b with SMTP id i1-20020a631301000000b00477f6beb65bmr660075pgl.362.1674076747697; Wed, 18 Jan 2023 13:19:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202301180943.30I9hrOw030485@freefriends.org> <202301181513.30IFDDUJ015224@freefriends.org> <20230118151446.GD2964@mcvoy.com> <20230118161959.GE2964@mcvoy.com> <2f00f9a6-c57d-8490-4066-931ec6e191cd@gmail.com> <20230118164242.GG2964@mcvoy.com> <13b87744-306e-7ecc-a0d0-9305d4b7d958@gmail.com> <20230118171633.GH2964@mcvoy.com> <80641ed1-b0a1-78f8-fabe-83c13b9a9ade@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 14:18:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: WW64NKFHG5ZXQPMP4JYGFMCPODKDJ2DI X-Message-ID-Hash: WW64NKFHG5ZXQPMP4JYGFMCPODKDJ2DI X-MailFrom: kevin.bowling@kev009.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 2:10 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > Something I think would do wonders for UNIX diversity (although I obvious= ly haven't done a feasibility analysis) is a convergence or at least some s= ort of homogenization of driver interfaces. That is one of the key areas w= here I think faster movement would have me using BSDs exclusively, but at a= ny given time I can't expect the same hardware support from anything other = than the Linux kernel. I'm not in the know on current driver interfaces to= know if its apples to apples, apples to oranges, or apples to hypercubes. = But still, if *BSD supported the BCM2711 in entirety w/ graphics accel and= onboard SDIO-driven wifi, Linux would serve me no advantage at present oth= er than I know how to tune the kernel build a lot better. http://www.projectudi.org/ was a nod to cross-platform drivers that seemed to go nowhere fast. Linux and FreeBSD also had some limited form of NDIS (Windows network driver model) for some time. One thing you realize after doing a little driver work is most companies have no comprehension of driver quality supporting or harming revenue and reputation. Most purchasers are happy with some value of "works" and performance is hopefully within target, anything else is entropy. A lot of historic poor experiences with WinNT-based OS are driver issues, Microsoft eventually got pretty serious about this and the situation is not as bad these days. Occasionally someone gets it right by dead reckoning, Nvidia won GPU and ML because their (proprietary) drivers are less awful than everything else in the space. > Granted, driver support is not only implicated here, I'd be a lot more no= madic with operating systems if I knew I could work on hobby projects acros= s the preponderance of them efficiently. > > At the end of the day I just want a system with a POSIX-friendly kernel t= hat works with all my devices and doesn't have a complicated userland. As = of present, GNU/Linux w/ sysvinit is the happy medium, although one of thes= e days I mean to research in earnest if there's a BSD/V7-ish init that actu= ally gels well with Linux+Glibc userspace. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 9:25 AM, Will Senn wrote: > > > > Fair enough, but the worlds a little more forgiving than all that doom > > and gloom :). If an innovation happens in BSDland, it generally gets > > ported into Linuxland, in time, and visa versa. I heart linux, don't ge= t > > me wrong. I just wish they would... > > > > > > On 1/18/23 11:16 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > Well if you want to use your precious time working on some BSD, by al= l > > > means, it's your time. I looked at where the BSDs were going 30 years= ago > > > and decided that helping Linux would be a better return on investment= . > > > I don't say that happily, SunOS was my happy place and it was the bes= t > > > BSD that ever existed. Turning to Linux was not easy but history has > > > shown it to have been the right choice for me. > > > > > > The problem with BSD is a lack of users. Linux has so many more peopl= e > > > using it, the chances of one of them finding the problem and getting = it > > > fixed, before I hit it, are dramatically higher than the same thing w= ith > > > a BSD release. > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:57:17AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > > > > > > > Pretty sure Netflix CDN is still using it as are other vendors in n= eed of > > > > stable and fast. Just cuz my neighbor doesn't use it, or joe websit= e hoster > > > > doesn't use it doesn't relegate it to the nobody uses it pile. > > > > > > > > On 1/18/23 10:42 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > > > > > Wishful thinking. An OS needs critical mass in terms of developer= s. > > > > > The BSD efforts divided their devs by having multiple efforts. It > > > > > was very obvious from the beginning that Linux was getting all th= e > > > > > developers. Go look at the rate of commits to Linux vs the rate > > > > > of commits to {Net,Open,Free,DragonFly,etc}BSD. > > > > > > > > > > They aren't dead as in nobody does anything to them but they are > > > > > dead in that very few people use them. > > > > > > > > > > Look, Linux users are tiny compared to Windows / MacOS, I think t= he > > > > > desktop users is around 1%. BSD users are even more tiny than Lin= ux. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:36:48AM -0600, Will Senn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Larry, > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree, but only time will tell. I don't think BSD is dead = is really a > > > > > > fair statement, unless you're referring to the actual distribut= ion. As a > > > > > > line, I think it's still viable (I run it in several flavors an= d it works, > > > > > > much more reliably than most linuxes which I also run in multip= le flavors). > > > > > > That said, everybody :) it seems, seems to be on the Linux is t= he future > > > > > > bandwagon with seemingly only a few of us holdouts. Just a coup= le of days > > > > > > ago I spun up a TrueNAS instance and it was glorious - of cours= e it was > > > > > > CORE, try that with SCALE :). > > > > > > > > > > > > It does seem like the wave favors Windows, Mac, and Linux... Bu= t, just cuz > > > > > > they're popular doesn't mean the less popular OSes are dead (I = say this as I > > > > > > gaze fondly over towards my KIM-1 clone and think of Monitor. > > > > > > > > > > > > Will > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/18/23 10:19 AM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pretty unrealistic to expect the users to suddenly have the t= ime to do > > > > > > > kernel dev. Solaris opened sourced itself and it's dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a lot of work to maintain and evolve an OS. Windows, Mac= OS, and > > > > > > > Linux seem like the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for BSD, they pretty much killed themselves by all the in-= fighting and > > > > > > > the lack of someone like Linus. That was obvious 30 years ago= and it > > > > > > > hasn't changed. That's why I switched from BSD to Linux. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 04:10:34PM +0000, segaloco wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just hope we'll see some attempts at opening up these cod= e bases as time goes on. Seeing as they're no longer going to be pushing ne= w copies and will eventually ramp down maintenance releases, opening up the= source would give their end users the ability to potentially float their o= wn improvements if they can't immediately migrate to Linux or BSD. That sai= d, security implications of course, don't want to just hand bad actors a co= de base to comb for memory unsafety in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also this article is BSD erasure :(, no mentions of the big= three save that OpenServer and Darwin have chunks of FreeBSD in them. I gu= ess Berkeley is just chopped liver... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 7:14 AM, Larry McVoy lm= @mcvoy.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It makes perfect sense, it's a repeated story, commercial= loses out > > > > > > > > > to free. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 08:13:13AM -0700, arnold@skeeve.c= om wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Interestingly enough, Phil Hughes, who founded Linux Jo= urnal > > > > > > > > > > in the early 1990s, predicted that this would happen on= e day. > > > > > > > > > > This was in a private conversation we had. I thought he > > > > > > > > > > was crazy, but he was right. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/17/unix_is_dead/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FYI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arnold > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/l= m/boat