From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 6a0edfde for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 18:16:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 8BED89C152; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 04:16:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579409C137; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 04:16:17 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="TwW8X51O"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4C16F9C137; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 04:16:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f41.google.com (mail-io1-f41.google.com [209.85.166.41]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94D569C10B for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 04:16:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f41.google.com with SMTP id i11so31246247ioi.12 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8TDbVX6NmAIhS8YEdzfbUVTfAEg9OK5EaPbg5Kio9H4=; b=TwW8X51OzE5v0DYR81IFQO68y8XgWyxIsFiGSHiOX80ntc7QfKylMF+DGmJXQChYQw VhiOTJv29P3FG40iJECbg7OsldAltRWoiJVtg1r5A7GKpAsu0lHRVwOhVE8XvJ/AXFqS eKEW1ugZQVdkArG56Z64mgGpeqKtEHjxkg8SE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8TDbVX6NmAIhS8YEdzfbUVTfAEg9OK5EaPbg5Kio9H4=; b=hm7+zzos3X6rdmiIUumcHkHbsKHUg001abzqsfBcRx36/x2+qfKrYcdxG7eijlpSy4 20COO4CCLHSSZrUTCK1411l7+s2Qxy+BJgd5l3C6exI/D5FrMvCpx+7ASlwfYNLJNk+b QZxUo+YtgXTobVqrR+dKs9wBaAAiNqjT8ikA2HjChD7to2UdzF9MnW98ORYpqyZUhA16 jxt3JMoSD89tGM04PYVi1LlLMW1zmspxguwQPkH/zVbdRZRVzlpuHqOuwABmHj45kBrj njyW/3mYsR5hieENFbhE1a7DPIbsrMd3NRKFODJrC46kkNokqpycZFDg0xENO1JcDHqt myWA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUomSrYW1Waew9hK7q+EOb55ESW600EVZRxnEOnpAEwnlS7NJge F/qFvpDPvVT8oq8SyREY/nCoBtjHVZJVBtOVj8buJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzxrZLVf1fyPWrhey0yfv0B3tX0r7BLVQOoIhARiM8EMN8oY0ZTzg3Gnt0EpSXEIRaGeGh7vnC4lSUGvmgwGPg= X-Received: by 2002:a02:a309:: with SMTP id q9mr16415640jai.141.1579457772750; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:16:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A5107E4-06AD-4C2B-B590-15C17B301D44@cfcl.com> <20200119102937.3s2hwl3ziupa7ese@unixfarts.net> In-Reply-To: From: Kevin Bowling Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 11:16:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] "What UNIX Cost Us" X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 9:35 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > Benno's talks (systemd and this one) weren't wrong. Systemd *is* a dumpst= er fire. It has a lot of cool ideas, but is coded by someone that has poor = listening skills and is more stubborn than he's technically competent. It's= had a crapton of severe security bugs in it. It's given us abominations li= ke eth4156 as a NIC name. It doesn't like it when you & a job and log out f= or Pete's sake. It's a total mess that breaks everything to try to push the= state of the art. Beno's talk on it may have been a little over the top, b= ut he's not wrong about much of his criticism. Systemd has swung too far fr= om the do one thing and do it well philosophy, admittedly in ways that are = ham-fisted and don't necessarily mean that it's philosophically wrong, that= it shows at least some of thee wisdom of simplicity. > > Benno's Unix talk is similar. He's not wrong. The everything is a file pa= radigm has issues. The problem is this talk is just self aggrandizement at large. It would have been cute in the year 2000. It's pretty ridiculous cherry-picking hoping to target an unknowing audience in 2020. I can alt/option+space on my FreeBSD desktop, open a monitor, and kill a process in a GUI with a top right search box the exact same as OS X. Cool. Modern Linux distros don't even use X11 (except nested as OS X in case of legacy application). The crude APIs (he calls out Linux and Windows and BSD and C) are not secret. I would be surprised if Linus himself didn't agree that a lot of the Linux interfaces suck. There's just an issue of backwards compatibility, and you know, doing some work instead of fishing for social points at a conference. Android has deviated significantly from Linux. Linux from UNIX. Basically nobody at a Linux conference is blindly following the UNIX philosophy. This message makes little sense to that crowd in absolute terms. The kindest critique I can give is: fighting the last war. > On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 3:47 AM Tyler Adams wrote= : >> >> His example of the USB driver was pretty silly. The unix code even looke= d cleaner and straightforward compared to the convoluted windows/mac messes= , but he's mad because he had to figure out a filepath. What!? > > > Figure a dozen file paths out, cat the right thing to them so other file= s show up and then you can do the same thing again? That's not a sane in= terface. Everything isn't a file. We've known this since the 70's. The fir= st NCP/TCP stacks were terrible in this way. You opened /dev/net/london. An= d while that sounds cool, it means you have to have some kind of name looku= p in kernel which isn't a directory lookup. You either need a userland daem= on to do the work and sleep, or you need to do crazy things like that in t= he kernel. And there was no really good way to do what we do with select, p= oll, kqueue or the like. And trying to do really high end, high data rate s= tuff with read/write is inefficient. > > At Netflix we use sendfile for our stuff. It's one of the least unixy thi= ngs in the kernel. It reads from a file, then TLS encrypts the file and sen= ds it out the socket. This means state has to be carefully managed with som= e setup in userland before the handoff. The other non-unixy thing is that i= t's all non blocking. sendfile asks for a set of pages from a file. When th= ey are ready, it gets a callback to schedule encryption, and when that fire= s it's scheduled to the NIC for transmission and either retransmission or f= reeing up depending on the ACKs that come back. At ~190Gbps, this isn't som= ething one can do with the normal Unix interfaces, which was the point of h= is talk. He's not wrong, but his examples could use some work. > > The real world is messy, and often requires complexity. Going too simple = for simplicity's sake is just as bad as going too complicated for complexit= y's sake. A proper balance is needed. And he's not wrong to make that point= . > > Warner > > P.S. complaining about Benno's involvement in cleaning up FreeBSD's fortu= ne in response to his talk is lame and puerile. Totally off topic and typic= al of the stupid and ill-informed attacks that he attracted around the code= of conduct stuff by jerks that had no stake in the FreeeBSD community, but= instead wanted to fight for their absolute right to be self-absorbed jerks= without consequences. It totally burned him out, and the FreeBSD community= lost a contributing member because of the grief he got. It's unbecoming to= see it on this list. > >> >> Tyler >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 12:37 PM Vincenzo Nicosia = wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 11:27:39AM -0800, Rich Morin wrote: >>> > FWIW, I found this talk to be quite amusing and interesting. >>> > >>> > "What UNIX Cost Us" - Benno Rice (LCA 2020) >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D9-IWMbJXoLM >>> > >>> >>> ...which is along the same lines of the talk the same guy gave about >>> systemd and why everybody should like it. The message is simple: we >>> just want to run our shiny MacBooks and we don't understand Unix >>> anyway, so we'd better get rid of it and move on. >>> >>> A flawed analysis that obviously leads to flawed conclusions. >>>