From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 461c25c5 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 13:02:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B30E99D527; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:02:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009E29D518; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:02:03 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=kev009.com header.i=@kev009.com header.b="Kimf6M3j"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D2B639D518; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:02:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f46.google.com (mail-io1-f46.google.com [209.85.166.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5E189CD7A for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:02:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f46.google.com with SMTP id n21so10037176ioo.10 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 05:02:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rnS2/6HQDRp+/WkQfVK9+ZClTZOvQvqugl4jGdkd3sM=; b=Kimf6M3jOTPc3XNcnaowvZ62+zHJNdr0aTGK2pPeaMOpRq9p46V0CwL7fnG4I4KS6f a/3HBLEcpY58CdxOMe2rryUOdwrSbszISO1TWqfTBNpo+wOweZYMOwnOxTq5L3w1EhDA XelhQNAF85Zafp52ZsNghOH1rOsTz4ouKQAYk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rnS2/6HQDRp+/WkQfVK9+ZClTZOvQvqugl4jGdkd3sM=; b=Qw5kX1fJH7azSvXoJZHpLyy0fNHvlve2hXZ6GMlxBi7CZjvV+clhm21avsnzio3qks R0klXX27y7Lc8AlXorWbXIWZXhbDjroJKWvAWL4Jp8UcvnSl8U67LLny7LHgz2+3hGuA 1S3g7gJZBQyj4bVefqIVD5ITD/e1Ry7sgxGruOMxgGdTpUhFtkj5jWkyBUVgyKiUwYTE veWsnJZEfDveFAPnoA5BlAPWB/aDaXyxLZwb8gBdmQ7iYA0Nvn3N3UQCbYB0yrKqX9CO MkW9vq/mGw9cSfznh8zaRvL5S26RrI/QdsUldq+ltgW2YnMCMGkdd8MNNxZ+322UtNah nAbA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVbTElqz+L8t5xwY4r8OZfALASo+MoHq7qIHcOMheFIwdePhmW 7/K3xw2VSxQzHNQaNPEGpQxNYKPOtKlDOT1CSh2C2+ku X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxpXb0lg2nptF5OIi4ZUx49YdbVImnqeRbjEWXYhM4uJe82Fa5h6zCzNICBaH7ebdIji83c7XaqJdy2Bfdg1dc= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c6d5:: with SMTP id r21mr16405913jan.129.1582030919698; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 05:01:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <25E62EB5E090E7CB.88de76ea-9cec-4c1e-a00f-b15eb755ab0a@mail.outlook.com> <25E62EB5E090E7CB.b51df4ee-f07b-4926-bf33-ba7bfcd485d9@mail.outlook.com> <25E62EB5E090E7CB.36bb1263-cdbe-4b01-9db9-3fed23e83b02@mail.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <25E62EB5E090E7CB.36bb1263-cdbe-4b01-9db9-3fed23e83b02@mail.outlook.com> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 06:01:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jason Stevens Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe1db9059ed9469d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000fe1db9059ed9469d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for clarifying. I will reassert that the three pieces of systems software I mentioned (VRM, AIX2, AOS) are not Mach in any way I know about. AOS may have some generic cross pollination, it=E2=80=99d be whatev= er was going on at CSRG also for non-RT (4.2-4.3?) BSD platforms at the time of checkout. Kirk or Warner may be able to elucidate if provided the date and some reference material from AOS or I can do some original research. Most distinctly and important: VRM is not in any way Mach, it was its own bespoke microkernel. The microkernel would have been the most =E2=80=9CMac= h=E2=80=9D part of Mach research, so this makes the VRM concept even more unique and enjoyable to me being so different and ambitious. Therefore I don=E2=80=99= t think it is particularly correct to say any of VRM, AIX, AOS software is Mach without its ukernel. What you linked is a very late port (late 1990s) of a hybrid of 4.3 and 4.4 BSD (late meaning in the time when Net, Free, and Open had long taken over from CSRG BSD). I will quote a Twitter communication I had with Miod Vallat in the past: =E2=80=9CAlso it's not really 4.4. It's a mix of 4.3BSD-Reno plus the 4.4 V= FS layer and new system calls. It still uses the 4.3, pre-Mach, VM system, hence no mmap(2).=E2=80=9D What Miod means by =E2=80=9Cpre-Mach=E2=80=9D above: 4.4 BSD adopted the ke= rnel memory subsystem of Mach into the existing BSD monolithic kernel. Not any of the ukernel or things like Mach IPC. Not trying to be overly pedantic with you just trying to keep the records straight since these machines are one of my keen interests and I welcome new information on them. Regards, Kevin On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:30 AM Jason Stevens < jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: > Oh sure! > > I'm having to use my phone... > > It's the combined sources here: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/IBM/RT/rt_bsd44/ > > doc mk > jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4$ pwd > /home/jsteve/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4 > > jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk/conf$ cat vers* > 69 > 5 > 1 > X > > So 5.1x edit 69 > > jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk$ more CHANGELOG > HISTORY > 17-May-88 David Golub (dbg) at Carnegie-Mellon University > XM21: > David Black completely rewrote the accurate timing code > (which is now implemented on all machines) and the priority > and scheduling algorithms. The system now correctly reports > cpu_usage per thread. > > > > The all file has this before i386 was added. > > So it's an older v2 than what is on the CSRG CD, but not as old as the VA= X > '86 stuff. > > It seems to be March 11 1989, although that could be when this was either > archived or ported.. I guess they didn't exactly sync to a public kernel > tree all that often. > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM +0800, "Kevin Bowling" < > kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: > > I=E2=80=99m asking exactly where the Mach is in the linked archive. VRM, = AIX or >> AOS? Can you support this with a reference for my own documentation >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 1:02 AM Jason Stevens < >> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >> >>> It's the CMU micro kernel. The hybrid "2.6" lived on in NeXTSTEP, and >>> OPENSTEP, with various upgrades to bring it up to OS X. >>> >>> The RT as I understand it was a research machine, hence the BSD ports, >>> and Mach port. >>> >>> What is interesting the more I dig around is that there was ROMP >>> coprocoessor cards, and an OS/2 and DOS monitor program to let you boot= BSD >>> on the card. Peripheral IO was done on the x86 side. >>> >>> If RT's are rare, I can't imagine how impossible it would be to get one >>> of those cards! >>> >>> The BSD assembler and linker source is in the archives too, no doubt >>> it'll help someone make a RT emulator. >>> >>> Get Outlook for Android >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM +0800, "Kevin Bowling" < >>> kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote: >>> >>> Can you clarify what is Mach in this archive if I have a gap in my >>>> knowledge? I didn=E2=80=99t know the VRM had any direct relationship t= o Mach >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:43 PM Jason Stevens < >>>> jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting stuff! And another version of Mach is buried in there. >>>>> >>>>> So the 4 csrg cd set may have updates to the romp support as it's an >>>>> older version of the 5.1 kernel from 89... Not that think there is a= ny >>>>> Mach romp users. >>>>> >>>>> Get Outlook for Android >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* TUHS on behalf of Charles H >>>>> Sauer >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 5:51 a.m. >>>>> *To:* TUHS >>>>> *Subject:* [TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions >>>>> >>>>> The Bitsavers' RSS feed ( >>>>> http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/bitsavers-bits.xml) seemed >>>>> to me to be dominated by RT, AIX, AOS (BSD for RT), etc. stuff in the= last >>>>> week or so. I've only sampled a few items, but discovered a few thing= s that >>>>> I should have known (or knew and forgot?) while I was at IBM. >>>>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/rt/ -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 >>>>> e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://tec= hnologists.com/sauer/ >>>>> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter >>>>> : >>>>> CharlesHSauer >>>>> >>>> --000000000000fe1db9059ed9469d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for clarifying.=C2=A0 I will reassert th= at the three pieces of systems software I mentioned (VRM, AIX2, AOS) are no= t Mach in any way I know about.=C2=A0 AOS may have some generic cross polli= nation, it=E2=80=99d be whatever was going on at CSRG also for non-RT (4.2-= 4.3?) BSD platforms at the time of checkout. Kirk or Warner may be able to = elucidate if provided the date and some reference material from AOS or I ca= n do some original research.

Most distinctly and important: =C2=A0VRM is not in any way Mach,= it was its own bespoke microkernel.=C2=A0 The microkernel would have been = the most =E2=80=9CMach=E2=80=9D part of Mach research, so this makes the VR= M concept even more unique and enjoyable to me being so different and ambit= ious.=C2=A0 Therefore I don=E2=80=99t think it is particularly correct to s= ay any of VRM, AIX, AOS software is Mach without its ukernel.

What you linked is a very late port (= late 1990s) of a hybrid of 4.3 and 4.4 BSD (late meaning in the time when N= et, Free, and Open had long taken over from CSRG BSD).=C2=A0 I will quote a= Twitter communication I had with Miod Vallat in the past:
=E2=80=9CAlso it's not really 4.4. It's a mix of 4.3BS= D-Reno plus the 4.4 VFS layer and new system calls. It still uses the 4.3, = pre-Mach, VM system, hence no mmap(2).=E2=80=9D

=
What Miod means by =E2=80=9Cpre-Mach=E2=80=9D above= : 4.4 BSD adopted the kernel memory subsystem of Mach into the existing BSD= monolithic kernel. Not any of the ukernel or things like Mach IPC.

Not trying to be overly pedanti= c with you just trying to keep the records straight since these machines ar= e one of my keen interests and I welcome new information on them.=C2=A0

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 5:30 AM Jason Stevens <jsteve@super= globalmegacorp.com> wrote:
<= div>
Oh sure!=C2=A0

<= /div>
I'm having to use my phone...=C2=A0=C2=A0

It's the co= mbined sources here:

doc =C2=A0mk
jsteve@local= host:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4$ pwd
/home/jsteve/rt_bs= d4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4

jsteve@localhost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk/conf$ ca= t vers*
69
5
1
X

So 5.1x edit 69

jsteve@localh= ost:~/rt_bsd4/src/sys/.local/mach2.4/mk$ more CHANGELOG
HISTORY
=C2=A017-May-88 David Golub (dbg) at Carnegie-Mellon Universit= y
=C2=A0XM21:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 David Blac= k completely rewrote the accurate timing code
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (which is now implemented = on all machines) and the priority
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and scheduling algorithms. The system = now correctly reports
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cpu_usage per thread.

=

The all file has this before i386 was adde= d.=C2=A0

So it's an older v2 than what is o= n the CSRG CD, but not as old as the VAX '86 stuff.=C2=A0

It seems to be March 11 1989, although that could be when th= is was either archived or ported..=C2=A0 I guess they didn't exactly sy= nc to a public kernel tree all that often.=C2=A0

=

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM +0800, "Kev= in Bowling" <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
I=E2=80=99m asking exactly where the Mach is in the = linked archive. VRM, AIX or AOS? Can you support this with a reference for = my own documentation

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 1:02 AM Jason Steven= s <j= steve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
It's the CMU micro kernel.=C2=A0 = The hybrid "2.6" lived on in NeXTSTEP, and OPENSTEP, with various= upgrades to bring it up to OS X.=C2=A0

The RT as I understand it was a research machine,= hence the BSD ports, and Mach port.=C2=A0

=
What is interesting the more I dig around is t= hat there was ROMP coprocoessor cards, and an OS/2 and DOS monitor program = to let you boot BSD on the card.=C2=A0 Peripheral IO was done on the x86 si= de.=C2=A0

If R= T's are rare, I can't imagine how impossible it would be to get one= of those cards!=C2=A0

The BSD assembler and linker source is in the archives too, no do= ubt it'll help someone make a RT emulator.=C2=A0



On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:54 PM +0800, "Ke= vin Bowling" <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
Can you clarify what is Mach in this archive if I ha= ve a gap in my knowledge? I didn=E2=80=99t know the VRM had any direct rela= tionship to Mach

R= egards,
Kevin

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 9:43 PM Ja= son Stevens <jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
Interesting stuff!=C2=A0 An= d another version of Mach is buried in there.=C2=A0

So the 4 csrg cd set may have updates= to the romp support as it's an older version of the 5.1 kernel from 89= ...=C2=A0 Not that think there is any Mach romp users.=C2=A0

Get Outlook for Android

F= rom: TUHS <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Charles H S= auer <sauer= @technologists.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, = 2020, 5:51 a.m.
To: TUHS
Subject:= =C2=A0[TUHS] Bitsavers' RT/PC, AIX, AOS, etc. recent additions

The Bitsavers' RSS feed=20 (http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/vintage/bitsavers-bits= .xml) seemed=20 to me to be dominated by RT, AIX, AOS (BSD for RT), etc. stuff in the=20 last week or so. I've only sampled a few items, but discovered a few=20 things that I should have known (or knew and forgot?) while I was at IBM. http:= //www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/rt/ --=20 voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.co= m/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
--000000000000fe1db9059ed9469d--