From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02282438E for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 20:32:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE1A43BFB; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:32:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A3C436D5 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 04:32:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c70c08d98fso1056813a91.0 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:32:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kev009.com; s=google; t=1718908351; x=1719513151; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=/1WRbhXY3aDUJhaM+Dd+ttRiE8wTp7Br7qIWXAwnvfU=; b=b+1G3Zc+KkaZQryBfbJ0JSFHNwHN7HHmfhOYaghUf2t3iwK9nK2X/xE0GdFc0laq3V nrSJ+t181TuDASZjkNu/ectOrqXCyTSb6k/sm7kvOga7AuTLxh3XHs4y9ocAkqhAKAkU OijprevEIH0cBF2hrxPmCjIfussVRRwtW65MU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718908351; x=1719513151; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/1WRbhXY3aDUJhaM+Dd+ttRiE8wTp7Br7qIWXAwnvfU=; b=o/aKSPoPkDUMa/fIMduDraLeLxc9rDHK/OB0mnqufRRiZrVp7ohiW7n2gMXyWVZE3n 4KliIY9iFBNmCfrqLhuPhZCl3rkX/ew4BCmgUOcFyyDEJ8OvPlCuhRwkwZ5atCCGsG/E nyrWDXWqEYWqnuOe6EI/dQ1ZISoen6dbncTNT8ClKjQjKxUUWQ3uKO8JmxsGDV0/IRtP 6WuuuNdOUFc95DfJHahOqng9ZhTyPH52FmRnTDsKHE/QLpUXs7yUvqmGlH5TQB7lDqFW cARZRmwt9s0Fru5sMR0M6gPUXG/uQkOm7Txd51/0SCyIBmHImAz0q7D3RaEBwMOClZ4l mFug== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzBzo8+fDSmtPrsNvb5+77aZYT7DBIM6jeA8vU11EzS3186QiZn 2GdB0FqCRNkAgsF8ZN7vhEPMll/iDXv0g5XGEROK5NxtV8lcE0zB+kGBtrmA+t+gQ0VJhgbKNun U0O/UJK7SRjADVzAkdmP4Ozjvn6GkEuqsZvofOpQAKVttl5bGsMZu X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHh6U0ZL++KHTe6LMLWdCAMZX9vvlX+pDD/b9sk/B9/Pv0558QMhfIIfl/IK/QT32m9PYPZmRU6Qdinw82B81o= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4ca6:b0:2c8:647:216 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2c8064709bdmr1644872a91.20.1718908351194; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <517f74db45c3b1af@orthanc.ca> In-Reply-To: <517f74db45c3b1af@orthanc.ca> From: Kevin Bowling Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 11:32:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: MRGFYWCIXHLX6ZQJ45LJN3APLE7R6TYF X-Message-ID-Hash: MRGFYWCIXHLX6ZQJ45LJN3APLE7R6TYF X-MailFrom: kevin.bowling@kev009.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 9:45=E2=80=AFAM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) wrote: > > > This is The Way if you really care about portability. Autoconf, > > once you get your head around what, why, and when it was created, > > makes for nice Makefiles and projects that are easy to include in > > the 100 Linux distributions with their own take on packaging the > > world. > > This is outright claptrap and nonsense. In the latter half of the > 90s I was responsible for writing installers and generating > platform-native packages for about a dozen different commercial > UNIX platforms (AIX, Solaris, Irix, HP/UX, OSF, BSD/OS, ...). Each > of these package systems was as different as could be from the > others. (HP/UX didn't even have one.) Strong language for something that is easily measured by looking at a contemporary package collection. That's great for you and whatever this was but it is a simple fact that autoconf is the most common tool for Linux and rejecting it or something like cmake that has widespread adoption makes life more difficult for distributions. Go look at a random deb or rpm spec or ebuild or apk or whatever you wish, these all have inbox support for autoconf and have to impedance mismatch your clever custom jobs. > That entire process was driven by not very many lines of make > recipes, with the assistance of some awk glue that read a template > file from which it generated the native packages. And these were > not trivial software distributions. We were shipping complex IMAP, > X.400 and X.500 servers, along with a couple of MTAs. Our installers > didn't just dump the files onto the system and point you at a README; > we coded a lot of the site setup into the installers, so the end > user mostly just had to edit a single config file to finish up. The set of people that interact with make is minimal in relation to the userbase of contemporary unix. Binary distribution is the norm and has been for decades. > --lyndon