[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[Douglas McIlroy]

> "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

>> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C ...

> In private mail, BWK told me that it was DMR who wrote m4. He
t> hen reimplemented it in Ratfor for "Software Tools".

> Arnold

The book says colorfully, "... [and] we are grateful to him for
letting us steal it."

Doug

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[John R Levine]

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C ...
>
> In private mail, BWK told me that it was DMR who wrote m4. He
> then reimplemented it in Ratfor for "Software Tools".
>
> Just to set the record straight. :-)

You might want to update the Wikipedia articles.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[arnold]

"John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C ...

In private mail, BWK told me that it was DMR who wrote m4. He
then reimplemented it in Ratfor for "Software Tools".

Just to set the record straight. :-)

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[Marc Rochkind]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3524 bytes --]

I found this TUHS thread from 2019:

https://tuhs.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/tuhs@tuhs.org/thread/GPFOZNHNX2JOPPTPJEPRILDIT5O7N6QS/

in which Andy Hall's 1972 memo on M6 is referenced:

https://plan9.io/cm/cs/cstr/2.pdf

Marc

On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 2:53 PM Charles H Sauer (he/him) <
sauer@technologists.com> wrote:

> On 12/15/2024 2:17 PM, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > At 2024-12-15T15:09:20-0500, John Levine wrote:
> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 10:49 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Incidentally, UNIX had a different language-independent macro
> processor
> >>>> called m6. ...
> >>
> >>> Correction: The version of M6 for UNIX was called M4. Maybe because it
> was
> >>> only 2/3 as complete?
> >>
> >> The Wikipedia article on macroprocessors says that M6 was written in
> >> the 1960s by McIlroy, Morris, and Hall, based on GPM and Trac, written
> >> in Fortran and ported to v2 Unix.
> >>
> >> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C and is still
> >> around, notably as impenetrable magic in GNU autoconfig and sendmail
> >> config files. It looks a lot like GPM.
> >
> > Being aware of its reputation, I had some trepidation about using it,
> > and found its impenetrability to be overstated.
> >
> > For a few years now I've used it to generate two man pages from a single
> > source: groff_man(7) and groff_man_style(7).
> >
> >
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/groff_man.7.man.in?h=1.23.0
> >
> > The only thing I stubbed my toe on is m4's appropriation of common
> > English words for its command language.  A prefix sigil before such
> > words would have been a better choice.  But I got around that, too.
> >
> >
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/tmac.am?h=1.23.0#n252
> >
> > Regards,
> > Branden
>
> In 1997, when CSS was just beginning, long before
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_%28computer_language%29 was started in
> 2004, and subsequently illustrated m4 macros for creating HTML, I
> started using m4 macros extensively to define Web pages in such a matter
> that they could mimic appearance of other pages, and taught others at
> our startup to use those macros, so that our customers could use our
> software while retaining appearance consistent with the rest of their
> pages. Another way to think of the macros is that they comprise a static
> content management system – the content is stored in m4 files, which are
> transformed into HTML in advance, vs. more dynamic page generation in a
> typical content management system.
> https://web.archive.org/web/19990125090055/http://hire.com/ describes
> the software.
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/19980209192647/http://www.eds.com/careers/overview/cr_overview.shtml,
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/19990224005553/http://world4.hire.com/SVB/,
> and
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/19990422144616/http://www.careerstop.org/job.htm
> show remnants of customer pages created with those m4 macros.
>
> More at
>
> https://technologists.com/notes/2007/11/02/css-a-mans-got-to-know-his-limitations-2/
>
>
> Charlie
>
>
> --
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter
> <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter>:
> CharlesHSauer
>
>

-- 
*My new email address is mrochkind@gmail.com <mrochkind@gmail.com>*

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5721 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[Charles H Sauer (he/him)]

On 12/15/2024 2:17 PM, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2024-12-15T15:09:20-0500, John Levine wrote:
>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 10:49 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Incidentally, UNIX had a different language-independent macro processor
>>>> called m6. ...
>>
>>> Correction: The version of M6 for UNIX was called M4. Maybe because it was
>>> only 2/3 as complete?
>>
>> The Wikipedia article on macroprocessors says that M6 was written in
>> the 1960s by McIlroy, Morris, and Hall, based on GPM and Trac, written
>> in Fortran and ported to v2 Unix.
>>
>> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C and is still
>> around, notably as impenetrable magic in GNU autoconfig and sendmail
>> config files. It looks a lot like GPM.
> 
> Being aware of its reputation, I had some trepidation about using it,
> and found its impenetrability to be overstated.
> 
> For a few years now I've used it to generate two man pages from a single
> source: groff_man(7) and groff_man_style(7).
> 
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/groff_man.7.man.in?h=1.23.0
> 
> The only thing I stubbed my toe on is m4's appropriation of common
> English words for its command language.  A prefix sigil before such
> words would have been a better choice.  But I got around that, too.
> 
> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/tmac.am?h=1.23.0#n252
> 
> Regards,
> Branden

In 1997, when CSS was just beginning, long before 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_%28computer_language%29 was started in 
2004, and subsequently illustrated m4 macros for creating HTML, I 
started using m4 macros extensively to define Web pages in such a matter 
that they could mimic appearance of other pages, and taught others at 
our startup to use those macros, so that our customers could use our 
software while retaining appearance consistent with the rest of their 
pages. Another way to think of the macros is that they comprise a static 
content management system – the content is stored in m4 files, which are 
transformed into HTML in advance, vs. more dynamic page generation in a 
typical content management system.
https://web.archive.org/web/19990125090055/http://hire.com/ describes 
the software. 
https://web.archive.org/web/19980209192647/http://www.eds.com/careers/overview/cr_overview.shtml, 
https://web.archive.org/web/19990224005553/http://world4.hire.com/SVB/, and
https://web.archive.org/web/19990422144616/http://www.careerstop.org/job.htm 
show remnants of customer pages created with those m4 macros.

More at 
https://technologists.com/notes/2007/11/02/css-a-mans-got-to-know-his-limitations-2/


Charlie


-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer@technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[G. Branden Robinson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1355 bytes --]

At 2024-12-15T15:09:20-0500, John Levine wrote:
> >On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 10:49 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Incidentally, UNIX had a different language-independent macro processor
> >> called m6. ...
> 
> >Correction: The version of M6 for UNIX was called M4. Maybe because it was
> >only 2/3 as complete?
> 
> The Wikipedia article on macroprocessors says that M6 was written in
> the 1960s by McIlroy, Morris, and Hall, based on GPM and Trac, written
> in Fortran and ported to v2 Unix.
> 
> M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C and is still
> around, notably as impenetrable magic in GNU autoconfig and sendmail
> config files. It looks a lot like GPM.

Being aware of its reputation, I had some trepidation about using it,
and found its impenetrability to be overstated.

For a few years now I've used it to generate two man pages from a single
source: groff_man(7) and groff_man_style(7).

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/groff_man.7.man.in?h=1.23.0

The only thing I stubbed my toe on is m4's appropriation of common
English words for its command language.  A prefix sigil before such
words would have been a better choice.  But I got around that, too.

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/tmac/tmac.am?h=1.23.0#n252

Regards,
Branden

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

[TUHS] Re: M<some number> macros, wasRe: SCCS

[John Levine]

>On Sun, Dec 15, 2024 at 10:49 AM Marc Rochkind <mrochkind@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Incidentally, UNIX had a different language-independent macro processor
>> called m6. ...

>Correction: The version of M6 for UNIX was called M4. Maybe because it was
>only 2/3 as complete?

The Wikipedia article on macroprocessors says that M6 was written in
the 1960s by McIlroy, Morris, and Hall, based on GPM and Trac, written
in Fortran and ported to v2 Unix.

M4 was written in the 1970s by Kernighan and Ritchie in C and is still
around, notably as impenetrable magic in GNU autoconfig and sendmail
config files. It looks a lot like GPM.

As an old Trac user I'd be interested to hear what M6 was like. The
Wikipedia article has a footnote pointing to a book by A J Cole, but I
found a copy of the book and it says nothing about M6 and has only a
passing reference to McIlroy.

R's,
John