From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFEE266D1 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 14:40:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D4F427DA; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 22:40:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yw1-x1130.google.com (mail-yw1-x1130.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1130]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA84F427D9 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 2024 22:40:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yw1-x1130.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62a0c011d53so35523777b3.0 for ; Sun, 02 Jun 2024 05:40:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=dartmouth.edu; s=google1; t=1717332001; x=1717936801; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5ShBYvuIVsltfZI2oyV3EnC5l0mSSTdrbmoxC1FEy58=; b=AeSl9TBfZcESgBf5ElsI29WTfKsjz9WSEdj3pzU6zoq4gg7P2OqdbG30ZBKIF0z+2Y zh9DnFp30XqEjLEq8NPWIoAlADunZ1NsUqHE2aEOglImEso5kF41E7Xbl40AreLLh3kX 2f9VBd6Jd+ulCjPU5FydPtuNn44Koz2ZE8DB2x/cx1UYa0mvOdPyV50QjeEwIR6PBCsK YVtiHTjNchFoZi4ByxmMaA7rDag4SrTBM984qO0YtQQGGw/WquwsCGj0cRkekrwQH0SN DG03NCovK0JnbCZ/ojnWQqeHc3HzyQULsssrY2rzMnLdOrbM3fq2d7jsu/dJJOftAFlx XOvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717332001; x=1717936801; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5ShBYvuIVsltfZI2oyV3EnC5l0mSSTdrbmoxC1FEy58=; b=izsNtUT+vwloAz13Ew3zNcbCKIFIq3PWEQnL95K2B7c3+THhLuiTKJeSPIqO4Eza6+ 4exnRvCbqOFpPkqzDRhBPGYfeQJi+d2FZpGqPSTXjPu0vpDGzXGjqHzDu/m9bpmDWRsu 1RZ0qp14pGTYHQYfnSjVsUcNxTHl52vtfKXER5m6tgGCStNzNjiyKJcudg9/yFmJWGp7 8K4GNfIWv4kmzHoaed9YVRQPr5IWdeowynJCqihnAsttbIXBxfHqMOzPI2YLpUhs3qhq QP+WPPc66YTvD9J9loToS++OaDi6Gq/d2VDO5y4Rz5g1YyLBKhxlxz/h2igd/j7locA5 Mwxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzehh02HSxfhI9xCWrFwVZSuA+dFMhKg+r2l3l2svQk9M6zbkbq +KBjyet4p4NHiHDVNYrMM0WuRjnUdqH4afAf2pygedYQuMplPrUKRtDKprLA+VmNQrbe/3nF1Md quwh+xrShui87PzIE/AW76ZJpFCbmv9NupZEIUM+It7m/I+G0h20= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IF/V0KeUz96bsLMrX+bVIpvaZvD5NKD7bVkxwM0FfCqCFpweXtw2xvqGtxHKKgjZ3W4Epfi5w/hjKvx3axhk08= X-Received: by 2002:a81:a181:0:b0:618:9353:1023 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-62c8185bb7fmr50914377b3.17.1717332000550; Sun, 02 Jun 2024 05:40:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Douglas McIlroy Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:39:44 -0400 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dace460619e783bf" Message-ID-Hash: NOIO5T4UIEIABG6YT5FGQVJNL4HJRQZ5 X-Message-ID-Hash: NOIO5T4UIEIABG6YT5FGQVJNL4HJRQZ5 X-MailFrom: douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Proliferation of book print styles List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000dace460619e783bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Were you surprised when folks settled on word processors in favor of markup? I'm not sure what you're asking. "Word processor" was a term coming into prominence when Unix was in its infancy. Unix itself was sold to management partly on the promise of using it to make a word processor. All word processors used typewriters and were markup-based. Screens, which eventually enabled WYSIWYG, were not affordable for widespread use. Perhaps the question you meant to ask was whether we were surprised when WYSIWYG took over word-processing for the masses. No, we weren't, but we weren't attracted to it either, because it sacrificed markup's potential for expressing the logical structure of documents and thus fostering portability of text among distinct physical forms, e.g. man pages on terminals and in book form or technical papers as TMs and as journal articles. WYSIWYG was also unsuitable for typesetting math. (Microsoft Word clumsily diverts to a separate markup pane for math.) Moreover, WYSIWYG was out of sympathy with Unix philosophy, as it kept documents in a form difficult for other tools to process for unanticipated purposes, In this regard, I still regret that Luca Cardelli and Mark Manasse moved on from Bell Labs before they finished their dream of Blue, a WYSIWYG editor for markup documents, I don't know yet whether that blue-sky goal is achievable. (.docx may be seen as a ponderous latter-day attempt. Does anyone know whether it has fostered tool use?) Doug --000000000000dace460619e783bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Were you surprised when folks settled on word processors= in favor of markup?

I'm not sure what you're asking. "Wor= d processor" was a term coming into prominence when Unix was in its in= fancy. Unix itself was sold to management partly on the promise of using it= to make a word processor. All word processors used typewriters and were ma= rkup-based. Screens, which eventually enabled WYSIWYG, were not affordable = for widespread use.

Per= haps the question you meant to ask was whether we were surprised when WYSIW= YG took over word-processing for the masses. No, we weren't, but we wer= en't attracted to it either, because it sacrificed markup's potenti= al for expressing the logical structure of documents and thus fostering por= tability of text among distinct physical forms, e.g. man pages on terminals= and in book form or=C2=A0 technical papers as TMs and as journal articles.= WYSIWYG was also unsuitable for typesetting math. (Microsoft Word clumsily= diverts to a separate markup pane for math.)=C2=A0

Moreover, WYSIWYG was out of sympathy with Uni= x philosophy, as it kept documents in a form difficult for other tools to p= rocess for unanticipated purposes, In this regard, I still regret that Luca= Cardelli and Mark Manasse moved on from Bell Labs before they finished the= ir dream of Blue, a WYSIWYG editor for markup documents, I don't know y= et whether that blue-sky goal is achievable. (.docx may be seen as a ponder= ous latter-day attempt. Does anyone know whether it has fostered tool use?)=

Doug
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