From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2654 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2021 01:21:19 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 29 Nov 2021 01:21:19 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B413F9CF32; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:21:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89BF09C1E1; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:18:52 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="VPYLw7jU"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F202C9CF4A; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:18:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f178.google.com (mail-lj1-f178.google.com [209.85.208.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAC859CF74 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:18:27 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f178.google.com with SMTP id e11so31196473ljo.13 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:18:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WD9JTmMa6hNFMfcqKDdLwGh44SZ4T7e5FK1Xzqgh2zo=; b=VPYLw7jU4/lyBaQYof3pgWR+xTHF2qh2+HulI86GosqQyEEziUZK/th5ygMt6pTOXb VJS0nIBkT0KwlU0Rn9F6oZkhds14pXFVIOTfhSyx9iPfRrCvNJIH9gxk6exwXu9XH7iC La/YGZhrz8r2LSkB06Oj2P/Z0LwnDirhuQYohYMAI8mjzpYtvD1SDZpMQhKtJqZfsK50 9+zLqx0tDkBy2oHzlmBPcyvNoNmaF0zdUKBvtQIV1cYIeFroKMHJczUMVTx46W0NV4gU C35kCMb2xUg8t2MMwA+8fZ9Tgjyd8vDMk/i5ZnP03U2NCc1ZRYm75uTuCLgRblakA8SQ 5Y5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WD9JTmMa6hNFMfcqKDdLwGh44SZ4T7e5FK1Xzqgh2zo=; b=6SSmuUNo3I5U5sxtjNzvg67DXeGlpN6idLgaWEDTQKaHAqFPuxuYFnDqpuMujrhemy /JuGzEqxGRE7dZyuTwit/1dRtzKOs9ibg6u3vWsB91xOS5rd9F3IpF2G10HnB14Zcdcj TOJzQsAmLVSmlIOoPripjh0wHko9cOt9p4dtcxfSrDWwPGvqe7UyFP1r1bfwTF6xPy0V Q0LJDluHH1imOnTdCwMrO8TB68xnl1lzmBG5Y2lIuSB3iQZDJNJQ6TUj4TPIsH32g6UD ZLVr7VGvW2PhLKCD4jjeXoa1jeHmHSADmQBDr3Q4T4wWmMKcogDevu6P3dsjZw3Zp946 XDXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530LTq7qkJ28ZwdzJQF6QSLBxnSZv8b4ubngbzGJEw4n807f7fw3 mYAzk0S6EToB8ZdEzcMFNShbi9+CR8j7tYdylXgxkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxW/n0+bdSt7lb0loK6dpwa5jD69exhht+it5x15AiGRHBH5oSIHT/Ss4ttanMIJYHi4KzJldoBFFcaio5xv/c= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:292:: with SMTP id b18mr47175976ljo.220.1638148706279; Sun, 28 Nov 2021 17:18:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202111282026.1ASKQ5X41437843@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202111282115.1ASLFK1Q1438854@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202111282147.1ASLlND41439656@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 11:18:15 +1000 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba368805d1e33783" Subject: Re: [TUHS] A New History of Modern Computing - my thoughts X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Eugene Miya Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000ba368805d1e33783 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect because we believed we understood the pdp11 we felt we'd understand a good operating system on it. If more tertiary education people had been on other hardware of the day, we'd probably have invented the same myths for that host. G On Mon, 29 Nov 2021, 10:22 am Clem Cole, wrote: > Rob, I offer a small tweak to your statement, that I hope you will consid= er > > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 5:20 PM Rob Pike wrote: > >> The PDP-11 as an affordable commercial computer, now _that_ was importan= t. >> > s/computer/mini-computer/ > > I really believe that this distinction is important. Bell coined the ter= m > in the late 1950s/early 1960s when he called it a minicomputer. The key = is > that he meant >>minimal computer - in function and price<< (not small). > (This would event eventual lead to Bell's law for the birth and death of > computer classes). > > To me, the PDP-111 ISA is the epitome the *minimal computer architecture= * > - just want you to need to get the job done be it commercial or > scientific and it was affordable as you said. The solution is elegant, > nothing fancy, little extra added - just the right set of features for a > system to do real work. It was also extremely regular as Larry points ou= t, > so it was not filled with a ton of special cases. It did have a few more > features like addressing modes, and multiple registers that made it more > complex than say an accumulator-based PDP-8. But the small set of new > features made sense and were* of** use for almost all programmers*. > [FWIW: IMHO, most new features we add to Intel*64 is all for some special > cases for a specific customer]. > > I note that the VAX (was is the epitome of the CISC and while > extraordinarily successful), has always been an easy target as way too > complicated, filled with many special cases (just for the Fortran > compiler, or for Cutler's as an assembly programmer). > > IMHO: C is also made from the same minimal ideal. It took the > simplicity of the B and added typing and better data structures, but did > not overdo it. Again, what was added was useful to almost all programmer= s. > > I note that while the follow-on to both the 11 (the Vax) and C (C++) > became working horses, but both are ugly as can be, and neither would I > call elegant. I've used them both, however, I have moved on since that > time. I do pine for something more like a 64-bit PDP-11 (more in a > minute), and still use C when I can in the kernel or Go when in userspace= . > > > Having kicked around DEC during some of the Alpha discussions, other than > the original lack of byte addressing, I think the PDP-11 influenced the > Alpha more than VAX did. There was a definition -- why is the needed -- > thinking. Keep it simple a minimal. > > As for Unix (since this is a Unix history list), again I think it is the > minimal view I miss from Sixth and Seventh Edition. I look at Linux and > mostly turn green with how much has been lost from those days. But lik= e > the PDP-11, I can not really go back. My hope is that something will > appear that is "good enough" and '"simple enough" to get people excited > again. > > my 2 cents, > Clem > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > --000000000000ba368805d1e33783 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I suspect because we believed we understood the pdp11 we = felt we'd understand a good operating system on it.
If more tertiary education people had been on oth= er hardware of the day, we'd probably have invented the same myths for = that host.

G
=
On Mon= , 29 Nov 2021, 10:22 am Clem Cole, <cle= mc@ccc.com> wrote:
Rob, I offer a small t= weak to your statement, that I hope you will consider
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 5:20 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.co= m> wrote:
The PDP-11 as an affordable commercial comp= uter, now _that_ was important.
s/computer/mini-computer/

I really believe that this dist= inction is important.=C2=A0 Bell coined the term in the late 1950s/early 19= 60s when he called it a minicomputer.=C2=A0 The key is that he meant >&g= t;minimal computer - in function and price<< (not small).=C2= =A0 (This would event eventual lead to=C2=A0Bell's law for t= he birth and death of computer classes).

To me, the PDP-111 ISA=C2=A0 is the epitome the minimal computer architecture - just= want you to need to get the job done be it commercial or scientific an= d it was affordable as you said.=C2=A0 The solution is el= egant, nothing fancy, little extra added - just the right set of features f= or a system to do real work.=C2=A0 It was also extremely regular as Larry p= oints out, so it was not filled with a ton of special cases.=C2=A0 It did h= ave a few more features like addressing modes, and multiple registers that = made it more complex than say an accumulator-based=C2=A0PDP-8.=C2=A0 But the small set of new fea= tures=C2=A0made sense and were of use for almost all program= mers.=C2=A0 [FWIW: IMHO, most new features we add to Intel*64 is al= l for some=C2=A0special cases for a specific customer].

I note that the VAX (was is the epitome=C2=A0of the C= ISC and while extraordinarily successful), has always been an easy target a= s=C2=A0way to= o complicated, filled=C2=A0with many special cases (just for the Fortran = compiler, or for Cutler's as an assembly=C2=A0programmer).

IMHO: C is also made from the same minimal ide= al.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It took the simplicity of the B and added typing and bette= r data structures, but did not overdo it.=C2=A0 Again, what was added was u= seful to almost all programmers.

I note = that while the follow-on to both the 11 (the Vax) and C (C++) became workin= g horses, but both are ugly as can be, and neither would I call elegant.=C2= =A0 I've used them both, however, I have moved on since that time.=C2= =A0 I do pine for something more like a 64-bit PDP-11 (more in a minute), a= nd still use C when I can in the kernel or Go when in userspace.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

<= /div>
Having kicked around DEC during some = of the Alpha discussions, other than the original lack of byte addressing, = I think the PDP-11 influenced the Alpha more than VAX did.=C2=A0 There was = a definition -- why is the needed -- thinking.=C2=A0 Keep it simple a minim= al.

<= /div>
As for Unix (since this is a Unix his= tory list), again I think it is the minimal view I miss from Sixth and Seve= nth Edition.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I look at Linux and mostly turn green with how muc= h has been lost from those days.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But like the PDP-11, I can no= t really go back.=C2=A0 My hope is that something will appear that is "= ;good enough" and '"simple enough" to get people excited= again.

my=C2=A02 cents,
Clem=C2=A0 =C2=A0
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7
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