From: ggm@algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Niklaus Wirth!
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:56:59 +1000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0hHmS0-ga7SEL6Tyb9p5xHRTbKwaQj883Q5z=kcYt8mg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6HoYskjvhwraUgSCFBZa7hxQO9ozDraT7F5wXZjN5GSg@mail.gmail.com>
I tried to hire an engineer in the 1990s. She came to the interview
with her (probably over-controlling) father who was the founder of the
two person consulting company she'd been working for. They coded a
huge traffic-light management system entirely in LISP. Major stuff.
From memory, we offered but I think daddy didn't like the way we
behaved, she didn't accept. I think she was an incredibly good
programmer. Really smart, competent. It was my first clue that out in
the "real world" (I was working in a university) you could code in
LISP and sell solutions that ran things like traffic lights: People
die if you get that wrong. Awesome. (it's equally likely we didn't
offer, being stupid)
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 09:38:02PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote:
>> > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Lawrence Stewart <stewart at serissa.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > ITA???s airline flight booking system, that was used by Orbitz and
>> > > others
>> > > was pretty much entirely written in Common LISP, and it was certainly
>> > > both
>> > > large and commercially successful. Orbitz was bought by Google for
>> > > $700
>> > > million. I don???t know how much of the LISP survived sustained
>> > > attention by
>> > > Google.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Google bought ITA, not Orbitz. Most of the logic in QPX is still in
>> > Common
>> > Lisp, but it's not what you'd call "idiomatic" CL code. If one reads a
>> > bunch of Paul Graham and Peter Norvig books and then gets onto QPX with
>> > the
>> > expectation of that sort of elegance, you end up pretty unhappy pretty
>> > quick. They do a lot of things very differently to squeeze as much
>> > performance as they can out of what has, historically speaking, been a
>> > fairly mediocre compiler.
>>
>> Which is sort of my point. I don't know all the details but lisp and
>> performance is not a thing.
>
>
> That's a tad unfair.
>
> It *can* be fast, it's just that the "Lisp" you're writing in that case
> probably isn't the Lisp you wanted to be writing when you read about how
> cool and elegant Lisp was: you're avoiding some constructs to prevent boxing
> and unboxing arguments (e.g., put things inside of labels or flet's instead
> of defun's or passing arbitrary lambdas around) or generating useless
> garbage (don't cons up a list; setq the cdr) and favoring others that are
> less elegant to get better object code out of the compiler.
>
> If you can stomach the death-defying twists and turns from all the hoops you
> have to jump through for all of that nonsense, then you can make it fast --
> but at the loss of the expressive advantage. But that trade-off begs the
> question: why not write in a language that lets you write fast (executing)
> code without jumping through hoops? That's a fair thing to ask and most of
> the answers in Lisp's favor aren't particularly great.
>
> - Dan C.
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-02-16 2:56 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 53+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-02-14 21:06 Dave Horsfall
2018-02-14 21:12 ` Clem Cole
2018-02-14 22:15 ` George Michaelson
2018-02-14 23:37 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-02-14 21:24 ` Toby Thain
2018-02-16 0:01 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-02-16 0:51 ` Dan Cross
2018-02-16 1:06 ` Clem cole
2018-02-16 3:10 ` Toby Thain
2018-02-16 13:36 ` Clem Cole
2018-02-16 1:18 ` Larry McVoy
2018-02-16 1:55 ` George Michaelson
2018-02-16 1:56 ` Lawrence Stewart
2018-02-16 2:38 ` Dan Cross
2018-02-16 2:41 ` Larry McVoy
2018-02-16 2:51 ` Dan Cross
2018-02-16 2:56 ` George Michaelson [this message]
2018-02-16 2:51 ` [TUHS] Clueless programmers - was " Toby Thain
2018-02-16 2:55 ` Larry McVoy
2018-02-16 10:26 ` [TUHS] " Tim Bradshaw
2018-02-16 1:25 ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-04-24 0:59 ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-04-24 3:26 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-04-24 4:31 ` Dan Stromberg
2018-04-24 13:42 ` Clem Cole
2018-02-16 2:09 ` Bakul Shah
2018-02-16 2:31 ` Toby Thain
2018-02-16 10:01 ` Tim Bradshaw
2018-02-16 12:10 ` Bakul Shah
2018-02-16 12:37 ` tfb
2018-02-16 13:34 ` Bakul Shah
2018-02-16 14:07 ` Bakul Shah
2018-02-16 20:13 ` tfb
2018-02-16 3:17 ` Dan Stromberg
2018-02-14 23:19 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2018-02-14 23:31 ` Dave Horsfall
2018-02-15 17:32 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2018-02-15 19:18 ` Ian Zimmerman
2018-02-15 20:56 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2018-02-15 21:31 ` Jeremy C. Reed
2018-02-15 2:30 ` Nemo
2018-02-16 2:19 Noel Chiappa
2018-02-16 2:48 ` Larry McVoy
2018-02-16 4:19 ` Steve Nickolas
2018-02-16 11:27 ` Tim Bradshaw
2018-02-16 15:45 ` Nemo
[not found] <mailman.1.1518746401.1018.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-02-16 2:40 ` Paul McJones
2018-02-16 13:42 Noel Chiappa
2018-02-16 21:02 ` Tim Bradshaw
[not found] <mailman.22.1518790085.20342.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
2018-02-16 17:40 ` Paul McJones
2018-02-16 19:24 ` Bakul Shah
2018-02-18 20:50 Norman Wilson
2018-02-19 0:28 ` Dave Horsfall
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