From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_MED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d1f707df for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 03:22:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B710BA1B10; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:22:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596A0A1AFD; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:21:51 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 09D0BA1AFD; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:21:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f46.google.com (mail-wr1-f46.google.com [209.85.221.46]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44C08A1AFC for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:21:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f46.google.com with SMTP id 96so13494937wrb.2 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:21:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bRj4q5Tqdah68UvSAFh3suOv7E/qt4docvC3fj53vco=; b=a9cYTMJfFS0VtOTCsbrL3/zTO7I4P4F6Hy2fDATIhT1xiwSwyy3XNmuZLaSWvAKvnN qpJThxGEA6ZJqh9o/hPl4hOf/AfiidSwiV6i7Ddq3mcCPuDXXEA3hPMGIuyg+c0BaL7u QjXbLXkBbzsfGnIpdELZ2AbhFX/719mNhVDoFDtY+UikBuOw3ZUOB+S5m0XWqjtGRDWR OPQyqpzlB67B55HVNoTfcYwWVTXH95uOzzR/B6uDd5hstzHBUwjmB1hbMe6u9LpyjS+U wYtPDaV3SbXMcXXWK2BfzRoMLGFYTqXQITcLTIcRcnfP7lAh6yMs7IqaUwv0xCWbIm8s bb/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bRj4q5Tqdah68UvSAFh3suOv7E/qt4docvC3fj53vco=; b=GVQp9Xj5yGikosibGoQ3Ysvwu5Fil7UqRjmo9IR8M82Rg97BYvoYMeABCt7l9B9rS2 RaaFlQ4AYV4g6pl3u5wASjLbIG6HjpRbglDkuMVwd3EuAaSDD6aHvw7dLfDqq8z2vMyX VJGjK75ae2MxdNS62WMcOjBBbpdxVNCLTEioOAP6SjU2ZqYM/xTeYcCm7ImEfY2bpgHn f5rEeCn0mwHuMeP2MMnAISV9ly0APGKr9E9TJ7pchSAwZ8h8wwiFVeZMU3ygsv3OvVxT tOK3F5v6rdyfY1Rlfe4pDAuxiZxtOwg4EXYKtRMVRxN7RMDFKHeXA1sxrj/g76Ah/bz2 qOpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbjA9+IPBADmE5bApj4j/FxQalSsPgiI1UCuiFGFTgIlqFuGfvQ Zz3cHRkBdOU6gsn2eEBxpR5pHXOuMIIxXndYscZbhJ+n X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UPY2Dz45DNjvhnvEXXWU65kz6az/Rd2GcP4YfvbA9EGBYtgvvnBNO9x6BIJ54izqMOfz9fNNUngA/BBGZYgTE= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e807:: with SMTP id o7-v6mr2048743wrm.112.1542597696801; Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:21:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201811160003.wAG03mlF139232@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> <20181116045016.GK3341@mcvoy.com> <7a632484-cdc7-7c59-7077-7a2c752045da@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4c36b2b2-76df-435f-27bc-e1feb0647f36@case.edu> <201811162113.wAGLDGiQ031455@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <201811190311.wAJ3BDHR028154@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <201811190311.wAJ3BDHR028154@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: George Michaelson Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 13:21:24 +1000 Message-ID: To: jon@fourwinds.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] man-page style X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Mike Lesk had a really good rap about his work on Library information systems and the work they did at Bell (or maybe one of the schools of library sciences). The principle was, that "simple" users wanted nested menu and "power" users wanted commands. They did A/B testing and a bunch of work to show that if you trained people in the keystrokes for the commandline, they got significantly more productive. Mike also said (I may be mis-remembering, but this is what I took from the conversation) that people's prior experiental sense of what they wanted had as much influence on what they thought, as the quality of the system. So if (like me) you walked into the SOS room at the lab, on a Dec-10... you wound up wired to go with ed/ex/vi family interaction. If you walked into the teco room you came out more wired for emacs. I think this is very probably true, purely on my own sample of one. If I'd walked into the LISP room, I would probably now be a lowly paid quant in a small bank, failing badly instead of having walked into the pascal room, and being an imperative language person earning the huge bucks coding menu systems. No wait.. thats not right.. On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 1:11 PM Jon Steinhart wrote: > > Chet Ramey writes: > > On 11/16/18 4:13 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote: > > > But really the issue is that info introduced a new interface on a system > > > that already had one that people were accustomed to. > > > > Improvement is in the eye of the beholder. RMS and other folks consider > > info, with its hyperlinks, indexes, and tree-based navigation the superior > > alternative. Not just different, but better. > > Well, of course it is. And as long as one doesn't care much about existing > community one can do what one wants. Sort of like Americans expecting others > to speak to them in English when they travel instead of understanding that > they're in a different environment and it makes more sense to learn the culture > as it's unlikely that everybody is gonna change just for you. This is not a > unique problem with man vs info. I see it in the large number of different > make utilities, package managers, and so on that really don't provide new > functionality but do make it much harder to be a practicioner since one has a > lot more stuff to learn for no real benefit. > > So were it me, I would have looked at the current culture in the UNIX environment > and figured out how it gracefully extend it for new functionality. To me, that's > a mark of good engineering instead of being a bull in a china shop. A good example > of that in a different field is the way in which FM stereo was finessed in such a > way as to not break existing mono receivers. Would have been easy to just toss it > and make everybody buy new gear, but I prefer the more elegant solution. > > Jon