From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26272 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2023 01:17:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jan 2023 01:17:39 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0719042412; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 11:17:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oa1-f51.google.com (mail-oa1-f51.google.com [209.85.160.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3AC842411 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 2023 11:17:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oa1-f51.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-15085b8a2f7so4203685fac.2 for ; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 17:17:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=f8qa3xXZlWTa92dQlttV72Ft1mEZeOn/d2P2Z4n/UOI=; b=joZBAyTkiZe7pE1qXt4X9ozMCKf+LjJ0sNu9nHOTd3x6rxJPR6/n1GrkEyeJiPmI02 oHlTyBB3xiWYOGWNxGY5HgFGhGMBwV5SRLLMLAd1xgB1fm/yA7SJEzKc40w+Mw6ada2E OXF9Eq3figDdEDGbURCrByaFUdg205C+Lw+MFo/TT9FhfhUSYc409ViSdaIKS5cr0GaP cOq1XkByLXQStOCXwN3QPAH2PWeLL9NLxn4kDHs06LhevWSD47MEkzEelpkG0JgCAyjC 1LQNWqkvleSplh4xk5p2dybxmD6neFgO5x93H93z+iA4Vi704ixrKpplVHW554bnXfiQ D3JQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=f8qa3xXZlWTa92dQlttV72Ft1mEZeOn/d2P2Z4n/UOI=; b=7rckRFUpCXT2QSTIzE0T5hWfk7+4QtcCz6uQtx9gaHQ2M/MPU7vc4W7q4K6LOOzlH+ JqnVNdGJIpAj9Xgu8oI9aLaJoVLm73OflYO3OuPFL5GorliUTu3fJwN+66AC1jLdvsZ9 LKFbqbyhYHB1eXPpLxRWgNRTnQI/aB5rNP4DzvK0ufsoA3ZBjxcfAQiHMd90kkXxY4Mi p9EqNMDZMtLu5KFarAfBh2+l2xReGAev1N5l94QPQMpfQvP7sYsc+9iwVqQh4hKIF4Ta gmy4cM8L2x+ncyH/CUZfiy3rfjRb5xOqv5G0W9gi0++kG02Jy8nbprR0mUX/eVzUIFMw QtiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpGx1ENRDMtvLnHm3b/aAswfWFxTNQp8rEeAJMC9VJ/vnsN3eCn uGkmEjlcdVJxxaj6JzT8qAD9cu2mm9qr6NCPzVGmyA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXulzVUkVStdMPl9EhF6NGOWiMNurQ11GxV90g7D3IO7Q/wcSpy6TExA2/BbnNm0X9PEjQXKDFLsnaQtrSYlRbA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:aa08:b0:148:6226:4018 with SMTP id gv8-20020a056870aa0800b0014862264018mr2506503oab.285.1672535787718; Sat, 31 Dec 2022 17:16:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <335F89A9-30C2-41A2-8E84-C2D761746634@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2023 11:16:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000805eb505f12995a9" Message-ID-Hash: FJGI2SAFAXUJPSXDKCYWUUT6J5LZKRG7 X-Message-ID-Hash: FJGI2SAFAXUJPSXDKCYWUUT6J5LZKRG7 X-MailFrom: ggm@algebras.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting the SysIII kernel: boot, config & device drivers List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000805eb505f12995a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A counter argument which will be well understood as self-justifying if made by a boot rom specialist: Every machine I make winds up looking a bit different. The new bus has different logic. The chip initialisation differs. Blobs become more interestingly hard to handle because associated pre boot initialisation dependency keeps rising and no amount of push back from me stops it. If I make my boot ROM forth, I can reduce my marginal costs to writing forth code for most variant handling and occasional uplift of new primitives and constants into the forth for edge cases. My life gets simpler if I implement the wheel of life. I would imagine after the 10th sub variant, one would wind up thinking like this. Of course a rational alternative is to maintain a monrepo of all the variants and recompile all of them all the time to make all the boot ROMs far smaller. But making the generic anything ROM and changing only some forth would be attractive. Never owned this problem. I did work with two groups doing lsi-11 images for x.25 handling on yorkbox, and they definitely thought more like you than me on this: hand code it, code it well, they aren't general purpose devices when doing this kind of job. (I annoyed them a lot which tends to "probably they were right" in hindsight on my part) G --000000000000805eb505f12995a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A counter argument which will be well understood as self-= justifying if made by a boot rom specialist:

Every machine I make winds up looking a bit different. The n= ew bus has different logic. The chip initialisation differs. Blobs become m= ore interestingly hard to handle because associated pre boot initialisation= dependency keeps rising and no amount of push back from me stops it.
=

If I make my boot ROM forth, = I can reduce my marginal costs to writing forth code for most variant handl= ing and occasional uplift of new primitives and constants into the forth fo= r edge cases. My life gets simpler if I implement the wheel of life.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
I would imagine after the 10th= sub variant, one would wind up thinking like this.
=
Of course a rational alternative is to maintain= a monrepo of all the variants and recompile all of them all the time to ma= ke all the boot ROMs far smaller. But making the generic anything ROM and c= hanging only some forth would be attractive.

=C2=A0Never owned this problem. I did work with two gr= oups doing lsi-11 images for x.25 handling on yorkbox, and they definitely = thought more like you than me on this: hand code it, code it well, they are= n't general purpose devices when doing this kind of job. (I annoyed the= m a lot which tends to "probably they were right" in hindsight on= my part)

G
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