From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1417 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 23:41:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 23:41:25 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 884959D6E6; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:41:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4EA9BA66; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:40:56 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.b="JDRG6KLN"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id E90319BA66; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:40:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f45.google.com (mail-lf1-f45.google.com [209.85.167.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62599B95E for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:40:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f45.google.com with SMTP id a28so37039844lfl.7 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 15:40:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Me8L1ONq2HxGz3LBbEXmXks8RUuD9Rdu+66zxQ3+07M=; b=JDRG6KLNAbK0Yn06c+QcIjlKPu0IVrtsGPtHFJv3jB58ZZE0GZ2jcLsM/gg9lBZqSB 9oO8hCFTqVw6BecdAJdJOhKeqFhuqgVwoaI4X/cezJJIN/XoJxQNvNYsDE1wD3N2Zqlh t9uEYXkYR37UUNTAbEv4/6jUdQx8xTU4jwqXcEZ/HAWdCYhXiE4buw9TLJhItgHn8vrz MfEoje4hKAsyqvQw2Yvk+qcYEFn0TGU5COXKKGwq3t7kF/c4ODiclJ79OLmzyoeGgUJ7 r/55IZrCit2hiNU+yLOxnJJkP/PXarfYi861OK5OVyUe+Vaf5kbV6zmdxrc4kWu7zg+A ELNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Me8L1ONq2HxGz3LBbEXmXks8RUuD9Rdu+66zxQ3+07M=; b=iWbYbD+smphyGrSzNoRsjIABEgj99sl1hj/dVJADnWINEh44gVa0DQrs5Q2jba+xOO y0XFD5zPkFZFNcolkezOJ6KpBrymi8+t1hKbZ64p0WJwyVR9tRcVIc4BjQaT5yGTuXMJ 4uW+oSDmFLyWOEnje/O4Z459PUr/xbxjnxgyiM8zssrn0+nYM0CFrJb/X95PoMdEZfYQ xFJpB9XHm27v7cfsktb1VbTuRHGlUzowKMudZENvI1uBb+UNnxRzbXsmd3rkK/mOIYVF DK77xWt1Xkt1d+r4zdM2hPk9/r0bF23sslVfHVPA+zShwCnSCqr42RFCz39TiPMPG+Gb BeOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300Au26xoXAzVsEANjG+UMguwCSUZF/UCV5BDPe4oFDgSkBhizD iX8WXnqQ+uzbtg35fnXEZfssRuZLhzqNVjraDMSEpUX03WdNHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5eP5MJji4AkZ0Ta4Ixx70lNFYSa2pLeZoQHky4A7rUqDaB4kZRk9GflTUO8IROGpqRiCGfy6gt1rkFBqj61s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:517:: with SMTP id o23mr20645070lfb.416.1643758851883; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 15:40:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2022 09:40:40 +1000 Message-ID: To: Will Senn Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [TUHS] BSD 4.1, 4.1x, Quasijarus, and 4.3x X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" 4.2 was sockets. This was a huge change in network stack. It was also bust off the tape, we tried a unix domain socket binding and crashed the Vax. At that stage, we were using UUCP and cu heavily to do VMS-UNIX networking. When it settled down, much though I hated them, (I wanted the newcastle ... connection model to work, and then streams) sockets drove a lot of things. sockets became everything in some ways. the energy behind SunOS is NFS, and thats sockets. To me, noting some work on multi-core CPUs which fed into things, 4.3 onward is mostly about novel networking stacks. Its the side story to OS design, but the Van-Jacobsen work and related stuff by Sally Floyd, Alison Mankin and others looking into network dynamics and algorithms was huge. the IBM PC-RT became the fuzzball/BBN-Butterfly replacement in the NSFnet, run by Elise Gerich and others, Elise went on to be IANA after Jon Postel died. So the BSD-> IBM-PC/RT (BSD port) -> BGP story is huge in this. And .. It drives on sockets. BSD drove sockets drove NSFNet drove the explosive uptake of the network. Sockets sold machines. I don't entirely buy "off the rails" but I could believe the dynamic of the BSD workgroup and the surge in burden for not enough visible increment in benefit to Berkeley overall combined with the first pre-dotcom boom of Sun, Dec into the space probably drove people to seek salary and live outcomes better met in commerce. I didn't much get MT-XINU or the other breakout when the 386 port went live. an ISP I worked for used it, but frankly it was wierd. A Sun, pre Solaris was a more natural place to be for a BSD refugee. The dark side of this being Ingres. What happened there remains a bit shrouded to me, but I'm told a lot of dirty tricks went on. Kirk McKusick remained part of BSDs (V)FS story to this day. Others have become more occasional on the BSD lists but they are there, if they chose to remain silent, perhaps its because there's little upside to buying into the current debates. I didn't run BSD on any Vax after the 7 series, Maybe the effort to port to the later Vax-Cluster models was hard, but by then (looking backwards) DEC was already in Decline and Sun was spinning up to Solaris and the brave future of SYSV alignment hell. I had this wierd 2 floppy OS from some kid in northern europe, I mean FFS Andy Tannenbaum did tiny unix, who needs another one it doesn't have sockets it doesn't have anything. This linux thing will never work guys. We need more BSD. (worked out well, prognosticatiion-wise) DEC kind-of "got" networks but wierdly. They tried to sell UQueensland an entire campus of FDDI but we had to commit to buying 1000 linecards at a tiny discount. It was an insanely stupid idea. We stuck to thinwire and PCs with lightweight sockets stacks. Thats when two (2, I counted them) DECmate devices turned up and somebodys PA had to move over to them, hated them. The IBM Golfballs were much more heavily used. NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD can't agree on support for tabstop=3D4 and expandtabs in vi, and Python2 has just been deprecated EOL and Black rewrites tabs to 4 spaces. So I guess we can argue about that for some time yet. On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 7:35 AM Will Senn wrote: > > All, > > I did my research on this, but it's still a bit fuzzy (why is it that peo= ple's memories from 40 years ago are so malleable?). > > 1. What are y'all's recollections regarding BSD 4.1's releases, vis a vis= the VAX. In McKusick's piece, Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix, I get one per= spective, and from Sokolov's Quasijarus project, I get quite another. In te= rms of popularity and in terms of stable performance, what say you? Was 4.1= that much better than 4BSD? Was 4.1as obsolete immediately as McKusick say= s? 4.1b sounds good with FFS, was it? 4.1c's the last pre 4.2 release, but = it sounds like it was nearly a beta version of 4.2... > > 2. Sokolov implies that the CSRG mission started going off the rails with= the 4.3/4.3BSD-Tahoe and it all went pear shaped with the 4.3-Reno release= , and that Quasijarus puts the mission back on track, is that so? > > 3. I've gotten BSD 4.2 and BSD 4.3 releases built from tape and working v= ery well. I just can't decide whether to go back to one of the 4.x releases= (hence question 1), or go get Quasijarus0c - thoughts on why one might be = more interesting than another? > > 4. Is Quasijarus0c end of the line for VAX 4.xBSD? Why does tuhs only hav= e Quasijarus0 and 0a, was there something wrong with 0b and 0c? > > 5. Has anyone unearthed an original 4.1 tape, or is Haertel's reconstruct= ion of the 1981 tape 1 release as close as it gets? > > Later, > > Will