From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE45024491 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 07:32:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A418843BB8; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:32:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com (mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA23E43B90 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:32:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oo1-xc2a.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5b97a9a9b4bso229650eaf.0 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 22:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1718861549; x=1719466349; darn=tuhs.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=VnfOUpBmF0zEwaFI6+dHMON2TXyGxn+Yv7xbmOHidl8=; b=a5kHt3TMp1r8TfEPwm28s7iuu3gjp7XPAH/NjrTsay+nUhbOz0rSjVSTSy104ORDI8 fQhZKwv1sxOeu+2m41P+Xzwpu8F6fWKAAwV3kpXUQe2pU9ZluFztnsIrwZePO4E7jxPQ ceGFSMeh7fkNWC67v70MQq/vrsPM6v6jSlxrber5USohwunrJBkG97CMVrkJMVLqvsHn axe2x1IaW9JNjByUtlPA2TDQ4It+FM4ernJq8yMFbPsnstyNr5NBue2nFln5DrAt9M54 85NWEssWm1YYYgsvwy7hJet4uI7Gq6/wpSIJoWfX0/mJrTT55xmK1UAwJTD4UXvhwvGH Z/Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1718861549; x=1719466349; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VnfOUpBmF0zEwaFI6+dHMON2TXyGxn+Yv7xbmOHidl8=; b=P+ZpWcb3kvoWE1D9dXjToZ9kGPfdA+aee4hKB3cc2eQ+/Dz0Z5WB3YO7GXZpYlu71w PkFZ+EALe84CvQDKrdZYQMftiSWEAMJ96c18EV6bhbKCChts86FciR7WAWV67pJjtbyE xtPlP+BW3O06cUzKEAZKZaHIClPkcui7XahmV10UhFFHau4ZmV1H56D2jSmeZABs8hh2 BHI7Ac6oVGpTaFWu2HjPfrsf+TpyXZEQ8wM2Vj/EzNm53rBbwKH9qqYpZJMpocRU7CB1 SlY6sV9bHVFjc6KHDG3dk2FU60pvXZHTCgQZu+Gg41bEzmTv9Fnrs9DzA7kJbOiu4WXV MiJw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUt8UaCkKv71ib6Us/SRm5eovw6wkj7hlSKXx9Gkikf9V+cKvLpLV+RcQ1Y/GoCdUr+GNv2Hloeiy6eHn9y X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy/XEIkEMuIK0T0uP9zV8dEnhZJ+4zV/vmQSbuegRk3hy8Cz8CI pVkfXDnF1VyutHbAcxxNt+PF3YGALCn6HT7gK69zwm3B22xqj2K8k9kFfHQ/yWrXxkn017INMXo rLeWRcc4ez1F50CNIQRUGjHbiiTc6h2iXp88KUkKwY08XCwfQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEMWoSsNCNloW3ClpPIwQb2I2wzoUW8/YTjWdbi74qdeohamdK0BunnWY5YTL7Z4/CfTtJ9x25CCPt7csQ5hOU= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:ea2b:0:b0:5ba:3f33:d59d with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5c1adc77e35mr5111458eaf.9.1718861548845; Wed, 19 Jun 2024 22:32:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 15:32:17 +1000 Message-ID: To: David Arnold Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: RAHLM3OROVPSQT57JXANCUJXKBB4MH2D X-Message-ID-Hash: RAHLM3OROVPSQT57JXANCUJXKBB4MH2D X-MailFrom: ggm@algebras.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: we used to argue about that. I disliked autoconf because I felt 99% of the work could be precomputed, which is what MIT X11 Makefiles did: they had recipes for the common architectures. -G On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 3:15=E2=80=AFPM David Arnold wro= te: > > > On 20 Jun 2024, at 08:48, Kevin Bowling wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 11:59=E2=80=AFPM Theodore Ts'o wr= ote: > > > <=E2=80=A6> > >> So I did everything using (only) autoconf, including building and >> using shared libraries, > > > This is The Way if you really care about portability. Autoconf, once you= get your head around what, why, and when it was created, makes for nice Ma= kefiles and projects that are easy to include in the 100 Linux distribution= s with their own take on packaging the world. > > > For those of a certain era, autoconf was both useful and relatively simpl= e to use. > > In an era of many, divergent Unices, with different compilers, shared lib= rary implementations, and varying degrees of adherence to standards, it mad= e using FOSS a matter of =E2=80=98./configure && make && make install=E2=80= =99 which was massively easier than what had been required previously unles= s you happened to have exactly the same platform as the author. > > And to use it, you needed to understand shell, make, and m4, and learn a = few dozen macros (at most). m4 was perhaps the least likely skill, but si= nce it was used by sendmail(.mc), twmrc, X11 app defaults and various other= stuff, most people already had a basic understanding of it. > > In my view the modern rejection of autoconf as =E2=80=9Cincomprehensible= =E2=80=9D mostly suggests that the speaker comes from a generation that nev= er used the original Unix toolset. > > > > > d