From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23112 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2021 00:59:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 7 Jul 2021 00:59:56 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 543529CA3A; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:59:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 873C59CA35; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:59:06 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="Y1dw4/d1"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 56B509CA35; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:59:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-f53.google.com (mail-lf1-f53.google.com [209.85.167.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32E999CA24 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:59:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-f53.google.com with SMTP id t17so1107555lfq.0 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:59:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ws7kB23Q3VPmc8sU+PUTGHdU5Yd9OQfHSyJSL06+3Qg=; b=Y1dw4/d1pi1/PbMCimznLFaGtucht7Q2S6KMUHPej3JKDQC+ALPeHqFmUEyCIceVJz lciLon+Goh0ADD9mWi0FFUBuNobtxKNdFVQVW0bgiHknNvdtf1CYNIC9ifYdv6xB2L1s g1aDjqRPA6QgDHhl3aG9xTHOqfS3ks6J253U25HzymHnQ4CvAxQIeuaJwL8xbOaM8Gn2 bXSlVLaAd7+3hFkIj5dgOOfnY3/pH00C8O+xpm6t4W1c9tF4BcpEjgteFCgj4kiAQShG Vz/8un0kGRCWwrJlPWjFJ6/E2WaxgYQvPVoteCyzrsPmJSfUnWToTf4y7UdhecAKCghv oong== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ws7kB23Q3VPmc8sU+PUTGHdU5Yd9OQfHSyJSL06+3Qg=; b=k3YJg3Kht3EIlR4xPbv35zWKfYIMCojAjsI4m0lMY+uJ5h35vXUv28vHmPYpgZRpTh EIXiS5QzpX5zUx7d8hmxhTjKL/wgUJAEEGOvTg+J5QpPbTUm4nM3FwNr/x6l0vgl2lTQ QqGoipeRczBFsXacMt6Xc0CursDrE0Q9ajiy659gq45B0yKvJV7UBMWdE7oGq5lk4znm /sWXlZSTYO6Kckvnc1WypNQPK+lv/6tmwW9pG9MZdvV83wHMY3U+G0Nnr4drfkD/99Qx rDjazBZnxKHxamnX3MP473dEDPJIdk2+Wje/2mPW41NbX9bLZWl/ZFBeGzOFVPCIV1WW Bs/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vOpvqBQF2VOHgX1Dxtc+Pj6PPivfQaN8YsGE+Exjjz3hpGeEd o870+MmGne/EdkXFWjcAobA9c/Q6qStqNNRDBm0CPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxsYicbfx1MRkoYcLEExb/wo/eZ54hMH1x/1g1EQc4mRFL2EzLGjjbaJlyJYxgGaNag0XbTSI3xgerp581aen4= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:42d6:: with SMTP id n22mr16611543lfl.41.1625619541526; Tue, 06 Jul 2021 17:59:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210702213648.GW817@mcvoy.com> <396911b232bae5938068a14fe0f7181e@firemail.de> <20210704004757.GB24671@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210705071450.GA12885@tau1.ceti.pl> <20210706231659.GA13225@tau1.ceti.pl> In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2021 10:58:50 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" The emacs manual *printed, one-sided, bound to the desk with rods of steel* which I read in the 1980s in leeds was one of the best explanations of Virtual Memory I saw. I really struggled with the idea of address segments, maps, the idea of address space being bigger than physical memory (I think I drove a PhD student doing tutoring close to tears on this in '79) but the Emacs manual said really clearly up-front: "look, you can't address 32 bits of memory in "me" I only do 24, but this is how I do them, if you're interested" The Vax VMS manual along side it (another 2 feet of single-sided print) was probably as good, but more aimed at real engineers who could think in RPN and had pocket protectors. This was in a context where it was probably the go-to basis to try and play with LISP because nobody really told you about any other REPL to run in. I think even then I realised I wasn't going to ever want to code a towers-of-hanoi, nor even really explore 24 bits of (virtual) address space. I hate the cult. I decided to re-learn the finger muscle memory, now I can do bare-minimum in emacs for ORG and I think I'll go back to vi where I belong. vi suffered from insufficient love. I had to stop hating vim when it became the only real choice. (hate.. culty word, that) VScode was interesting, as was Atom, and I suspect more than a few people who code for a way of life here think this editor-wars stuff is tedious. I actually "think" in ed. I can't escape line-based semantic intent. I carry my own personal koan which basically says "any algorithm which needs more than 2 sentences or 1 screen of code to implement is probably beyond you". Its a bit of a flaw. On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 10:47 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2021 at 01:17:00AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > > > Well, when "everything" was small enough I really liked it. Nowadays > > there seems to be a trend of making Emacs into another OS, like with > > abomination we call the browser. > > > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsApplicationFramework > > > > As long as I am able to trim it during compilation, they may put > > whatever they want inside, but when I tried to unpack one of the > > latest browser source code, it took more than 2.5 gigabytes (I am not > > sure, it could have been a nightmare). I hope they will not apply this > > crazyness to Emacs. I hope Emacs version 23 will keep compiling for a > > while. > > Well, the old joke was that emacs stood for "eight megabytes and > constantly swapping". These days, sure, starting a fresh Emacs > version 27 process has a SIZE of 364 megabytes with an RSS of 78 > megabytes. > > OTOH, starting a fresh copy of Konsole (KDE's current terminal > emulator) has a SIZE 1383 megabytes with an RSS of 114 megabytes, and > the single Konsole process running all of my terminal windows has a > SIZE of 2160 megabytes (or just a touch over 2GB) with an RSS of 189 > megabytes. > > As a percentage of the 32 GB physical memory in my Desktop machine, > I'm not too worried about the memory consumption of either the > terminal windows or emacs, especially since the browser takes a lot > more memory. These days, I run my browser in a container to limit its > physical memory usage to 12GB; systemd makes setting this up via a > user unit file really easy. :-) > > - Ted > > # ~/.config/systemd/chrome.service > [Unit] > Description=Chrome Browser > > [Service] > ExecStart=/usr/bin/google-chrome > KillMode=process > MemoryAccounting=true > MemoryMax=12G > > P.S. On my laptop I constrain the browser to only use 8GB, which just > means that if I keep huge numbers of tabs open, some of them might get > automatically killed and will have to get reloaded when I swtich back > to that tab. Sure, this wouldn't fly on a PDP-11, but as long as I'm > more productive, I don't really worry about it.