From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 52d84097 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 02:06:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 676EE9BDC1; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:06:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9D69BD5A; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:05:43 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.i=@algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.b="IWaPZGOx"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CD8EF9BD5A; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:05:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-io1-f47.google.com (mail-io1-f47.google.com [209.85.166.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BD0D9BD57 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:05:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-io1-f47.google.com with SMTP id h144so75016025iof.7 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 19:05:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ULhBu66LHxEudJkzKk3jP4AFYf8aof6HaCA42eqOizE=; b=IWaPZGOxKIjxNWfEHpy9J/E7l7PK7DT0WwrlKWsyVZFqmgT0KC9FnqUBGstAYPnok1 Hnb3okRmveB/euQUj9e4RhhsSLIzAO6U/rpnDnqn/yiPQifVXY1CEJCvZzc9Nz1WameJ vALsfR85+Gmj+1HOW/uexk8mjmn/t1iKVZm1l0OKLbPkxxw03pssmaZK0quzKnIEK51k MQ90SSTU+ofj6LccjHJA7SIGfX/ACvGijBfBstHoritNUWxwCRoGWW+3Lfm9rnc5llzM sKoA4y7cogrIhxGkvNve3qoenjlEGtvUsV4FSCUvUuR1+ncO50ngGpA9h1zr00JbFLiN xHug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ULhBu66LHxEudJkzKk3jP4AFYf8aof6HaCA42eqOizE=; b=FxTkjZARynnpYE5gvH8a3IzVJSznieVVZ43LM9t8f8L4YGxkpTP/0thZXwOPC5LhPk FpIGopr0OIqr3LLRYyMLMFDJxA61ubQSKwnN8bTbhYECtYERaN9RhItKDzamF4k0F83w Cp5v0gsVuP7YhHdtC1Mp+H4y55NxmDGBP7J0bTXENTQc1Jg7P4bn85jA/Dt+4sL9p0gZ +vp2Ts/Ddy/HVi5SNXwTfKmsyv7/LU0eexOgTSksvoG+KjihGJ9mgp2Q/3hwazffgQR6 MfQd2haiRzCihgtWNZJ1gF9yOOk3jlHu5I6KRIrbgJwebl1AJNK0TvbO3wWGSTfosW9F dazg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX4nHqyUVS6DUf6w1TemUCNqPxqSAaCkKVs20znTYXmymsTjoiu ttBaIJFUvmlxR4RFapjkqvKIcge1rAa25epU9pm1E3B8KlI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz15JYopt0hbtuvm+PNfIImcF8614sqxFkUe5M7zHoeJI+scp0XsQp9/fGj1YsyvvokeJeLI/ULI+HIbWDcbN0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8bd4:: with SMTP id n203mr9204710iod.133.1568599535919; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 19:05:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190915232524.9A5491570CE9@mail.bitblocks.com> <7F62BF6B-8FEA-4C43-9E35-05BDE9BF04EA@ccc.com> In-Reply-To: <7F62BF6B-8FEA-4C43-9E35-05BDE9BF04EA@ccc.com> From: George Michaelson Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:05:24 +1000 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" The "block copy in an editor" thing is something which has intrigued me for years. poor old ed/ex/vi just couldn't do it, and for the life of me, I could not understand why this was "deprecated" by the people writing that family of editors. I seem to recall the various lightweight emacs which proceeded GNU had it, in some cases, and GNU had it. (Goslings emacs?) It was pretty much "you could do this with awk or sed" or "I wrote a SPITBAL program to do that" for most things. -As if columnar state, or a region of a screen was not something it even made sense to pick up into a buffer and put down somewhere else. Later on I theorised that the internal edit sequence log structure might make this quite hard to conceptualise and implement. But, I think its also possible the editor authors in question just didn't see a use value for this up-front. I think anyone who used WordStar or a half-duplex terminal saw a potential use for this almost immediately. And, the people using the early newspaper edit terminals almost certainly had a use for it because even at low-charcount they routinely seemed to work in newspaper columns, and so a "story" was about columnar paragraph structured data. Similarly the 'repeat this sequence of commands' thing which emacs had, as a "start keystroke" "end keystroke" and then @run that thing. Yes you could @run VI buffers, but you had to program them into a state, you couldn't tell the editor to "watch what you did, and re-do it on successive lines" I also suspect, that "do the thing you just did" and "block copy" were a bit low: people who did these kind of things were not clever. Clever people held the state of the lines in their head, and were mentally writing the ed/ex/vi or Teco sequences to change the letters in a line. Dumb people like me were thinking of editing as "cut the words out with rounded -end scissors and ask mummy for the clag gluepaste" Many fine hours were spent doing rote edits to fix post-formatted NROFF and RUNOFF text by me. Dumb, but doable. (runoff on the Dec-10 was good. I am glad I'd done it, it made the transition to nroff far easier. I didn't realize it was a cross-port from CTSS) -G On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 11:52 AM Clem cole wrote: > > Fair enough. But the original v6 Whitesmiths Idris was important and should be part of your v6 slide. It establishes that some people were beginning to take a commercial version of Unix seriously even if AT&T was not allowed too. > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > > On Sep 15, 2019, at 9:42 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019, 12:25 AM Bakul Shah wrote: >> >> On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:46:42 -0400 Clem Cole wrote: >> > >> > The first UNIX clone that I know about was a V6 version by Whitesmiths, >> > called Idris, I want to say in 1977/78. I believe that Michel's Gien's >> > Pascal clone that he talked about a year later started out as V6, but >> > morphed to V7 before he was done (and then later morphed again to become >> > Chorus in a C++ rewrote). Mike Malcolm's Thoth (which "Thucks" by the way, >> > my wife threw out my tee-shirt years ago;-) was a pseudo V6 clone. I >> >> Acc. to a paper[1] by Cheriton, Malcom and Melen did the >> original small run time executive called Thoth. Cheriton >> rewrote it to form the kernel of the system described in the >> Feb 1979 CACM article. It used memory mapping, swapping. etc. >> They also added a filesystem. > > > > Cataloguing all the clones was out of scope for my talk... there are a huge number that are known, and many more that aren't... > > I likely could do a whole talk on just that... > > Warner > > >> Thoth could not have been a clone of v6. It used message >> passing. More RPC than pipes. And it had "teams", where a >> "team" is roughly the same as a Unix process (separate address >> space) and a Thoth "process" was a thread in that address >> space. root was "*" (instead of "/") and current dir was "@" >> (instead "."). A bigger difference was that it had *nodes* or >> files and any file can have sub nodes. There was no >> separation between files and directories. >> >> It was an interesting system and a lot of different things >> were tried in it. In 1980-81 timeframe AMD forked off a >> separate company called AMC to build microcomputers. They >> chose Thoth. I almost worked there but in the end decided I'd >> rather do unix and joined Fortune and soon after AMD came to >> its senses and shut AMC down. >> >> [1] https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/research/tr/1979/CS-79-19.pdf >> >> > As I mentioned before the first commercial user of UNIX was Rand >> > Corporation in LA. Al Arms of AT&T legal wrote the original $15K/CPU >> > license for them. I don't know how many of those licenses were made >> > available, but I've always been under the impression it was under 10. Like >> > a lot of people at the time, this was when the 'glass tty' was just showing >> > up in force and Rand updated/wrote a version of ed(1) called the rand(1) >> > editor [IIRC, its still available as the 'grand editor' from Dave Yost]. >> >> The Rand editor e had nothing in common with ed(1). e >> descended from NED, a 2D editor, invented by Ned Irons in 1967 >> and described in "A CRT editing system" CACM Jan 1972. >> >> The "Grand editor", derived from e19 is long gone. Even Dave >> gave up on it long ago. Though you can find a separate >> version on the 'Net, also derived from e19. e with its >> multiple windows was a joy to use on a 60 line Ann Arbor >> Ambassador terminal. I use acme because it too is a tiling >> editor like e. It has some goodies not in e but overall e >> was a better experience. >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/rand/R-2176-ARPA_The_CRT_Text_Editor_NED_Dec77.pdf