From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9988 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2022 00:47:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Jun 2022 00:47:59 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF03F421F7; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:47:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAD42421F2 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:47:45 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id u26so20254198lfd.8 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PGiMg7ecKSqb0P1CF/5WbA9DVEU6WMeeiKw1LeBi8DY=; b=ay7WmewLyB1RaTzUkiMXICvp1HxNyeVOgvbTp7aDa73iFU/dnhSyLuUXLvDFXl2S0q SZAXF+TA9gYEp39MnzSJf64g7gLAKATOQhfZxHQSYrW1Y5QjSpkmegINKk2xQyKfdQ7z XZE5GHx+i8jwPzEO4BLlgdxk8AsZtRubpxZzBkS+sREzsEGQspNlg5Uq6AeLoTlHnkyU ukUVpNG5MTG+wfz6KVuzAs5oPcBNAp96/NCim6Gn+A35alC9eBdTDXLN3IDxEJq2Rrq/ Blrhk58Dsqh9i5PbESeTBxU5Eywv8vbd/ucO5/2sTspPiChgkGjkhX/KXQUJ40ukphoy Y9PA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PGiMg7ecKSqb0P1CF/5WbA9DVEU6WMeeiKw1LeBi8DY=; b=BJKjGBVVLudayq5iwYujHLYAb7+k9sRduAGug8xmBJeU1QdnmmLfwntgXj1Kuyn8AL p9NMP1GMN/4JjwyfEPMNUy/XMLll3xT8kqJVNk49+Jg83hvYEAVF33ICxwmchZzg9mBM I6W6mXhKTBVze5ToemIAxR0q2cKnKObTiOk2UHqsJ4vXhZ0jg2nCcyLP5J2tMGN3lix+ ru322ePHxdAx9kLEzZT/X7XlZLisKsVZc95G3BF69yWS1Ta9YUXpLeeeJWZYsHFRJ14E ImWRYjTyjMscX0LWvncKMaITACcdMSftL6wqpt1BweiS0t29hd7Z54lh2WUmfPu+w6Sh Fq+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Hm6Nvo9PIbNq1RYRCpkwKqMuRkKcrwNRmJgg2HMDA8vYj9wqm B8gIYZWj7aM5rv7Xu+2u56Ep5lokqvCPng8g1Z+8stJL3kg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyli1/anqc4sJC2vE3UXYBYmOa8mFgdkscP5bS6qw+AN4zuhT2bC6DdOUH4n38aMyp7hAPuxwIl+AFnocoNJAY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3f98:b0:478:d396:2e60 with SMTP id x24-20020a0565123f9800b00478d3962e60mr29139139lfa.229.1654476463568; Sun, 05 Jun 2022 17:47:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220603213215.GO10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603214032.GQ10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603223014.GS10240@mcvoy.com> <20220603234822.GV10240@mcvoy.com> <20220604010543.GZ10240@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: George Michaelson Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:47:31 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: M47EACZC7J6C6CJIY63HB6YR262VUAZH X-Message-ID-Hash: M47EACZC7J6C6CJIY63HB6YR262VUAZH X-MailFrom: ggm@algebras.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: AT&T wanted to monetise all work across the window. Personally, like a lot of other ex BSD admin in a uni people I had strong opinion, and I disliked the experience of SysV which was a mixture of unfamiliarity, and bullshit process overlay. I think when you put "but only for money" combined with "this is not how I think" combined with "sorry, your bug is not going to be important to us" combined with "thats not how AT&T thinks" it was profoundly de-motivating for people to cohere around. It is entirely tenable that at the time, a SysV kernel was "best of breed" but also, in the period. all the exciting work on the network stack was happening in Van Jacobsen's group, in BSD kernels. It was only later when he moved to Google, the pace of work in kernel network stack moved to Linux. Since then, BBR has been a low adoption path, painful in the extreme, driven by Netflix engineers in BSD. We now have 4 or 5 competing models to TCP flow management, and they don't play nice, so its not only kernel fragmentation, its kernel-featureset-richness fragmentation: inside a kernel, you have too many tunables to think about. Same with ZFS. Amazing system. At one point, the meme "it needs >4GB memory" escaped & people said "you can't run this on a rpi" which is factually incorrect, as much as "needs > 4GB" is also incorrect: it works BETTER with a huge arc, and de-dupe burns memory, but if you don't run de-dupe, you can run ZFS fine on smaller memory model machines. But the number of tunables... Oh my gosh. Kernels might be good: they're also horrendously complex now. -G