From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f295eed2 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 04:29:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 2700CA2086; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:29:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC2BA1CE9; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:28:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B1F8CA1CE9; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:27:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-f53.google.com (mail-ua1-f53.google.com [209.85.222.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FDE794A37 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 14:27:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-f53.google.com with SMTP id j3so3940404uap.3 for ; Sun, 02 Dec 2018 20:27:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aAtnbLmSnGd36Qn5RvFxk2Cbnk/nY+HutrEqvivI7K8=; b=lW5jv3rjdpt9HzZK0xGOUUL6QyDUGcScIDaglYxfDVDx6mMHx6QEt1aRriDYPOpmCn Hrf7qQdg+RHXb7uMA4ICNFlnZyCTNOG7advEXYIHQcP49drheJnLkMkfjLEMNFJJJnCn Yv60b+ac3LLDnoY+0eMRimYXP+emB4fXV9HJnO/vJtyttsSfdwYR4GmNUOudm6qp4do6 b3wgb2RPWoXwbXPGly8JZIpo151vuyKTPYrdMFSydGeIsb6Qa7/aDOvWXoLlueYs/BlE eneHea5eTI00Hm0wLi9veZvBzn56tq3Fwy5KT4BjBSbTxyOxXZqgmA41sJMDCE0f5zvt 47ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aAtnbLmSnGd36Qn5RvFxk2Cbnk/nY+HutrEqvivI7K8=; b=Qy+3kqRixUwYb2PQ4kWgM77XMyK0OpR62sFwzfmLZY2doL0pnM2dLgwa1CtXYU/ofq f3v41QdvgUEIvFBVnabsiqdKPgQsIdQUb74+8vqeyw3X9m2Thzsw04h7JnRWBsAdIOzX gVzNGz+xhhjiuVQhUTssf7OrDLB3HUjH+kwYaXJ5X2jfWZd6UVoJwlryEi8SHunDuqEM P02Xdv7U1IRI841HLFtWZnUIm+lojgmliVBybxyIVfp0JFb7z76fYcQBustwDjwOxqEk 55iDhwt/4gPA67vEUIcg3cJlDcDl0b0ou25AfR0OuMfGY5sgPDWwONLp08ziOpVbHJ9H Osvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWacO3H4UlQ269YidkgBS2gyS27n5EphD3KIKWtWoHdEXpC+NbIB FFdwLqAGErh8ZAOYLOZfFN7Rh4LTUT30OINoxz4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WP5Hd3ZHt26GyT9JikB3UFeqxu6QjEaElMZ6Ea0LOu603aHgvzudeQ5CHIQFzsgRWiqdyJ41nHKDrCDU1Rkf4= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:1e88:: with SMTP id o8mr6651503uak.69.1543811251287; Sun, 02 Dec 2018 20:27:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7942e6cc-177f-7155-f80f-80732da69d51@telegraphics.com.au> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Pike Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 15:27:20 +1100 Message-ID: To: toby@telegraphics.com.au Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003bbad7057c1691cc" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, John Backus! X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000003bbad7057c1691cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" To the author of the first message, the one who called Fortran an "obscenity". -rob On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:11 PM Toby Thain wrote: > On 2018-12-02 8:32 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's ideas about language > design. > > The 1977 lecture was by John Backus, not me, so I'm confused who that's > directed at. > > > > > -rob > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:34 AM Toby Thain > > wrote: > > > > On 2018-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > > As every computer programmer should know, John Backus was emitted > in > > > 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the "B"), but he also gave > us > > > that FORTRAN obscenity... Yeah, it was a nice language at the > > time; the > > > engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientists hated it (have > > you ever > > > tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody else wrote?). > > > > He made amends by being early to recognise that problem, and propose > > solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (still perfectly > > relevant today): > > > > > https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf > > > > --Toby > > > > > > > > > > > > Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be described in any > > syntax; it > > > is completely ad-hoc. > > > > > > -- Dave > > > > > > > --0000000000003bbad7057c1691cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the author of the first message, the one who called For= tran an "obscenity".

-rob

=

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 a= t 3:11 PM Toby Thain <toby@t= elegraphics.com.au> wrote:
O= n 2018-12-02 8:32 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's ideas about la= nguage design.

The 1977 lecture was by John Backus, not me, so I'm confused who that&#= 39;s
directed at.

>
> -rob
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:34 AM Toby Thain <toby@telegraphics.com.au
> <mailto:toby@telegraphics.com.au>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 2018-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> As every computer programmer should know, John= Backus was emitted in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the &qu= ot;B"), but he also gave us
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that FORTRAN obscenity...=C2=A0 Yeah, it was a= nice language at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time; the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientis= ts hated it (have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you ever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody= else wrote?).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0He made amends by being early to recognise that pro= blem, and propose
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (st= ill perfectly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relevant today):
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--Toby
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be de= scribed in any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax; it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> is completely ad-hoc.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> -- Dave
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>

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